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Southward, your second paragraph above contradicts your third, which I think you are in the process of realizing. The rise of Islamism itself has a LOT to do with the failure of secular Arab governments to protect and vindicate the rights of the Palestinians against the Western invaders. Israel is not a line of defense against the Islamist threat, it is a major precipitating cause of it.
When one grasps this fully, it's clear how utterly suicidal our policy has been and continues to be.
Also: whether a country is democratic has zero to do with whether it is a reliable U.S. ally. If democracy spread all over the Middle East, we'd be a lot more screwed than we are right now. So would Israel, incidentally.
It's interesting that you don't bother to address the beginings of the Palistinian issues which from what I've been reading started around the early 1900's by Palistinian Arabs who's majority are muslim.
The Romans popularised the term Palestina after their destruction of the 2nd Jewish Temple in Jerusalem when they uprooted and exiled the majority of Jews from the land, then known as Judea. This was an attempt to revoke the Jewish connection with the land of Israel in both name and substance.
So from this it seems that your assertion that the "palistinians" have a right to the land and the Jews are the invaders is in error, actually it seems that the current "palistinians" are actually squatters on what was from the beginning of time jewish land until they were tossed by the Romans.
It also seems from history that the Palistinian nationality didn't even exist until about 1924.
It's interesting that you don't bother to address the beginings of the Palistinian issues which from what I've been reading started around the early 1900's by Palistinian Arabs who's majority are muslim.
Not sure what you mean by the vague term "Palestinian issues". The Palestinian "issues" started when the Zionists started agitating for a state in Palestine, around the time of the Seventh Zionist Congress in 1905. The British then promised Palestine both to Emir Husayn of Arabia (1915) and to the Zionists in the Balfour Declaration (1917). This was all national and subnational politics and had little relation to Islam or, for that matter, Judaism (since most Zionists were Marxist and atheist in orientation).
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The Romans popularised the term Palestina after their destruction of the 2nd Jewish Temple in Jerusalem when they uprooted and exiled the majority of Jews from the land, then known as Judea. This was an attempt to revoke the Jewish connection with the land of Israel in both name and substance.
Bad Romans! Bad, bad Romans! Is there a point here?
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So from this it seems that your assertion that the "palistinians" have a right to the land and the Jews are the invaders is in error, actually it seems that the current "palistinians" are actually squatters on what was from the beginning of time jewish land until they were tossed by the Romans.
The Romans tossed out the Jews, the Byzantines succeeded the Romans, the Persians drove out the Byzantines, and the Arabs, in the seventh century, conquered the Persians in the first big wave of Islamization. There is no way that can even provisionally suggest a reasonable grievance by the Jews against the Arabs.
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It also seems from history that the Palistinian nationality didn't even exist until about 1924.
Really? Most Israel apologists place the emergence of the Palestinian nationality much later than that, if they even accept the designation "Palestinian" at all. I'm perfectly willing to concede that there was no discrete Palestinian (as distinct from Arab) national consciousness until after the '48 diaspora. I'm no expert on that part of it, although I do know that Yasser Arafat was refused enlistment in the Egyptian Army in the 1950s on the grounds that he was Palestinian. But that's all irrelevant anyway. I fail see how it would be more acceptable to dispossess and rob people because they call themselves Arabs rather than Palestinians.
probably for the same reasons we care about japan, south korea, the united kingdom, poland, or any other country which is friendly to the United States, and are our allies. Please don't forget, America stands for freedom and human rights. but, at the same time, please don't forget we have some allies who do not recognize human rights, one is saudi arabia.
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Originally Posted by Humanoid
Why is Israel such a big issue and why should Americans care about it right now? Why should be be sending billions to Israel when we have record deficits?
Should we hand out billions of American Tax payer's dollars to every country so they can pretend to be our ally?
Its amazing that candidates are being questioned about how much they support Israel.
Not sure what you mean by the vague term "Palestinian issues". The Palestinian "issues" started when the Zionists started agitating for a state in Palestine, around the time of the Seventh Zionist Congress in 1905. The British then promised Palestine both to Emir Husayn of Arabia (1915) and to the Zionists in the Balfour Declaration (1917). This was all national and subnational politics and had little relation to Islam or, for that matter, Judaism (since most Zionists were Marxist and atheist in orientation).
Bad Romans! Bad, bad Romans! Is there a point here?
The Romans tossed out the Jews, the Byzantines succeeded the Romans, the Persians drove out the Byzantines, and the Arabs, in the seventh century, conquered the Persians in the first big wave of Islamization. There is no way that can even provisionally suggest a reasonable grievance by the Jews against the Arabs.
Really? Most Israel apologists place the emergence of the Palestinian nationality much later than that, if they even accept the designation "Palestinian" at all. I'm perfectly willing to concede that there was no discrete Palestinian (as distinct from Arab) national consciousness until after the '48 diaspora. I'm no expert on that part of it, although I do know that Yasser Arafat was refused enlistment in the Egyptian Army in the 1950s on the grounds that he was Palestinian. But that's all irrelevant anyway. I fail see how it would be more acceptable to dispossess and rob people because they call themselves Arabs rather than Palestinians.
Or jews right? Following you logic since the jews were in Judea prior to anything calling itself "palistine" or "palistinians" they shouldn't have been disposessed to begin with so the nomads were moved aside to give Israel it's rightful land back. Has Israel made some mistakes? Certainly but they've also tried to make peace to no avail. As has been stated by several the only way for there to be peace is for Israel to be destroyed and the jews pushed into the ocean (Iran Pres.)... I wish them luck with that!
Or jews right? Following you logic since the jews were in Judea prior to anything calling itself "palistine" or "palistinians" they shouldn't have been disposessed to begin with so the nomads were moved aside to give Israel it's rightful land back. Has Israel made some mistakes? Certainly but they've also tried to make peace to no avail. As has been stated by several the only way for there to be peace is for Israel to be destroyed and the jews pushed into the ocean (Iran Pres.)... I wish them luck with that!
Of course the Jews should not have been pushed out by the Romans. But again, that was 2,000 years ago. And the notion that the residents of Palestine were nomads is a fallacy. A myth. An urban legend. A lie. Sure some of them were, but most were not.
I was about to say that I would like to see what the reaction of Israel would be if someone tried to take over their country, but wait, I believe that is what we've been seeing since 1948. They are not letting go of an inch of what is now theirs yet they expect every single Palestinian to just give it up and forget about it. If the Jews didn't forget what happened to them 2,000 years ago, how do you expect the Palestinians to forget what happened to them, and is still happening to them, from 75 years ago till today?
Southward, your second paragraph above contradicts your third, which I think you are in the process of realizing. The rise of Islamism itself has a LOT to do with the failure of secular Arab governments to protect and vindicate the rights of the Palestinians against the Western invaders. Israel is not a line of defense against the Islamist threat, it is a major precipitating cause of it.
When one grasps this fully, it's clear how utterly suicidal our policy has been and continues to be.
Also: whether a country is democratic has zero to do with whether it is a reliable U.S. ally. If democracy spread all over the Middle East, we'd be a lot more screwed than we are right now. So would Israel, incidentally.
Perhaps I could have stated it more clearly, but there is no contradiction. What I was addressing in paragraph 2 was someone's comment that Christian beliefs are behind our support of Israel. They are not.
As to your view that Israel is not a line of defense against the Islamist threat, it is a major precipitating cause of it. That depends on one's perspective. Both views are valid. Israel Is the main target of Islam, and as such it is a precipitating cause. Its very existence means trouble to the world. However, Israel IS a line of defense as long as it continues to exist.
All is not well in the old world. There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic. We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe. This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West. The danger I see looming is the scenario of America as the last man standing. The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe. In a generation or two, the US will ask itself: who lost Europe ? Patriots from around Europe risk their lives every day to prevent precisely this scenario form becoming a reality...Geert Wilders, chairman Party for Freedom, the Netherlands, at the "Facing Jihad" conference in Jerusalem 9/25.
He continues: ...if Israel were to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West. It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values. On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam. They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed. The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning. It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination.
I agree. America claims to be a Christian nation. God this and God that. Well, God Damn America, Jesus is from Bethlehem which is in Palestine, not Israel. Why protect Israel and not God's homeland?
No, america doesn't claim to be a christian nation. Where did you get that...
Because we Western nations like to carve up the Middle East with no concern for the people living there and then we have to deal with the consequences for a long time.
50 years from now, people will ask "Why do we have to care about Iraq again?"
Of course the Jews should not have been pushed out by the Romans. But again, that was 2,000 years ago. And the notion that the residents of Palestine were nomads is a fallacy. A myth. An urban legend. A lie. Sure some of them were, but most were not.
I was about to say that I would like to see what the reaction of Israel would be if someone tried to take over their country, but wait, I believe that is what we've been seeing since 1948. They are not letting go of an inch of what is now theirs yet they expect every single Palestinian to just give it up and forget about it. If the Jews didn't forget what happened to them 2,000 years ago, how do you expect the Palestinians to forget what happened to them, and is still happening to them, from 75 years ago till today?
Ya know I'd love to see the reaction to these statements if you removed the words Jews and Israel and inserted Native American and Indian.
Naturally the Palistinians are not responsible for anything that's happened to them up to now right? Both sides have some fault here and at this point I don't ever see the nuts in gaza stopping their terror campaign so unfortunately the retaliations will continue.
The thing you need to keep in mind when you talk about giving up support for Israel is if we did, just one of the unintended consequences would most likely be a complete takeover of Gaza and Jeruselum and possibly an all out war.
As to your view that Israel is not a line of defense against the Islamist threat, it is a major precipitating cause of it. That depends on one's perspective. Both views are valid. Israel Is the main target of Islam, and as such it is a precipitating cause. Its very existence means trouble to the world. However, Israel IS a line of defense as long as it continues to exist.
That's like saying it's worth it to let the pharmacist hit me on the head because he can sell me the aspirin afterward.
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He continues: ...if Israel were to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West. It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values. On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam. They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed. The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning. It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination.
I share this perspective.
I don't. But even if I thought it were true that there is a battle for world domination ahead with "the forces of Islam", dumping Israel would mean we could at least enter that battle with clean hands rather than as defenders of colonialism and oppression.
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