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as much as i really hate to rain on this lovefest! i respectfully have to disagree with the whole rodney king approach to politics. i too think that it would be great if a third party could work but the truth is they never have & never will! like it or not we have a two party system and the way to make a difference is to get involved at the grass roots level with the party closest to your beliefs and change it from within. partisanship is good, what are some major acomplishments made by a moderate? it takes strong, bold ideas which always become watered down any how, because of the nature of the whole political process!
Making viable third/fourth/fifth parties alternatives is a tough go, obviously. There's a reason why our country is 230 years old and we still don't have one. Like madicarus said, those in power don't like to give it up. But, I also think this fact is a function of people not being fed up enough with the system as it is. Our recent history has been apathy alternated with impotent rage- nothing consistent or intense enough to bring about more parties.
Which isn't to say that it might not be a good thing if it actually happened. Multiple party systems do tend to be more unstable, but if anything, I think politicians now feel TOO stable.
LionKing said: we should focus on upholding the constitution . . . uphold the ideals of America.
Preamble to the U.S. Constitution states: We the People . . . in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty . . .
Mike says: I agree with you. But neither party gets it. ‘Promoting the general welfare’ implies health care for all, somehow . . . and no matter HOW we skin that cat, providing it goes a long way to being a ‘just’ nation and one that is ‘tranquil’ too. Closing our borders would go a LONG way to providing ‘common defense’ AND ‘domestic tranquility’ AND ‘justice.’ So I agree, it would be nice if both parties did what you say. . . or at least one party did - then we’d know who to vote for.
LionKing said: . . . as far as shutting down special interests such as the sierra club, nra and such, why?
Mike says: I never said ‘shut them down.’ They could serve a purpose – if they wanted to. I said if we solve the issues then they won’t have these issues upon which to send frequent mailings to the faithful trying to get even more money to ‘fight the good fight’ for ‘the cause’ and all that other ‘Sky is falling! – Send money now!’ rhetoric. It would serve a useful purpose if they went back to teaching marksmanship and safe gun handling, marital skills, or environmental stewardship. But these non-controversial topics do NOT allow them to bilk ever more money from their gullible memberships. If their cash cow - the ‘emergency of the month club’ - dries up, the cash flow to Congress dries up, the power & influence dries up. There’s no money in satisfaction. They need to keep you riled up to get your money, vilifying the opposition, like Castro vilifies the USA in every speech, like Saddam Hussein did in every speech. Angry fearful people will give up their scratch to stop the ‘bad guys’ from taking away all your guns or poisoning our dear mother earth, or wrecking dear old marriage. You reacted by jumping to conclusions that I’d shut them down; this is typical of the mass of people conditioned by fear to run out and ‘man the barricades’ at all costs to repulse any new ideas . . . or reasonable solutions. Real solutions? Harmony? Gee, we can’t have any of that crap. . . its bad for OUR bu$ine$$.
LionKing said: . . . we use propaganda . . .
Mike says: Propaganda? Damn the propaganda! That’s what I’m ranting about, man. Damn the lies, the fallacies, the sound bites, the partial info, the misleading info, the slanted info, the constant fear, the stereotyping, the generalities, the grand standing, the vagueness, the over simplifications, the red herrings, the sloganeering, the single-issue-is-everything-take-it-or-leave-it ultimatums, the phony testimonials from BS Hollywood types, and all the other crap that is propaganda. You can’t really want to live in a nation built on propaganda, like Nazi Germany, like Cuba, like the old Soviet Union, like Iran, like North Korea. . .
LionKing said: . . . thank goodness . . . we constantly can vote out a disappointment. It all hinges on citizens informing themselves and taking personal responsibility
Mike says: Exactly what I said . . . don’t re-elect anyone until things get better. Yes, get informed. Yes, take responsibility by voting. But DON’T be propagandized by special interests and single issue politics. Don’t vote based on propaganda, and for sure don’t vote based on the talking heads of the NRA, Sierra Club, Focus on the Family, the Amer Med Assoc, and all the other special interests whose only true agenda is their own agenda – they do NOT have your best interests at heart.
LionKing said: . . . at some point there must be some sort of bond that keeps us united. . .
Mike says: agree again. . . historically the ‘bond’ was the old political adage ‘a rising tide lifts all boats’ but with Bush the only boats rising are those of the wealthiest 5% who benefit from repeated, unaffordable tax cuts and loopholes. Bush broke the bond of the balanced budget that a GOP congress hammered out with Clinton. It has been nothing but a feeding frenzy at the U.S. Treasury for the past 6 years, and only the wealthiest and well-connected got an invite to come and slop. You and I will pay that bill for all this red ink - for the next 40 years. . . I should live so long. . . 99.
To Mayeagley: No, we’re not talking about “rodney king” lovefests. We used to get along for the good of the nation, we used to celebrate our differences across the aisle, smile and drink heartily WITH ‘the loyal opposition’ – all of whom were patriotic Americans. We need to get BACK to where we CAN discuss our perspectives in Congress without going for the jugular like we’ve seen with Bush, Rove, DeLay, et al, and actually SOLVE a few things for a change.
LionKing said: we should focus on upholding the constitution . . . uphold the ideals of America.
Preamble to the U.S. Constitution states: We the People . . . in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty . . .
Mike says: I agree with you. But neither party gets it. ‘Promoting the general welfare’ implies health care for all, somehow . . . and no matter HOW we skin that cat, providing it goes a long way to being a ‘just’ nation and one that is ‘tranquil’ too. Closing our borders would go a LONG way to providing ‘common defense’ AND ‘domestic tranquility’ AND ‘justice.’ So I agree, it would be nice if both parties did what you say. . . or at least one party did - then we’d know who to vote for.
LionKing said: . . . as far as shutting down special interests such as the sierra club, nra and such, why?
Mike says: I never said ‘shut them down.’ They could serve a purpose – if they wanted to. I said if we solve the issues then they won’t have these issues upon which to send frequent mailings to the faithful trying to get even more money to ‘fight the good fight’ for ‘the cause’ and all that other ‘Sky is falling! – Send money now!’ rhetoric. It would serve a useful purpose if they went back to teaching marksmanship and safe gun handling, marital skills, or environmental stewardship. But these non-controversial topics do NOT allow them to bilk ever more money from their gullible memberships. If their cash cow - the ‘emergency of the month club’ - dries up, the cash flow to Congress dries up, the power & influence dries up. There’s no money in satisfaction. They need to keep you riled up to get your money, vilifying the opposition, like Castro vilifies the USA in every speech, like Saddam Hussein did in every speech. Angry fearful people will give up their scratch to stop the ‘bad guys’ from taking away all your guns or poisoning our dear mother earth, or wrecking dear old marriage. You reacted by jumping to conclusions that I’d shut them down; this is typical of the mass of people conditioned by fear to run out and ‘man the barricades’ at all costs to repulse any new ideas . . . or reasonable solutions. Real solutions? Harmony? Gee, we can’t have any of that crap. . . its bad for OUR bu$ine$$.
LionKing said: . . . we use propaganda . . .
Mike says: Propaganda? Damn the propaganda! That’s what I’m ranting about, man. Damn the lies, the fallacies, the sound bites, the partial info, the misleading info, the slanted info, the constant fear, the stereotyping, the generalities, the grand standing, the vagueness, the over simplifications, the red herrings, the sloganeering, the single-issue-is-everything-take-it-or-leave-it ultimatums, the phony testimonials from BS Hollywood types, and all the other crap that is propaganda. You can’t really want to live in a nation built on propaganda, like Nazi Germany, like Cuba, like the old Soviet Union, like Iran, like North Korea. . .
LionKing said: . . . thank goodness . . . we constantly can vote out a disappointment. It all hinges on citizens informing themselves and taking personal responsibility
Mike says: Exactly what I said . . . don’t re-elect anyone until things get better. Yes, get informed. Yes, take responsibility by voting. But DON’T be propagandized by special interests and single issue politics. Don’t vote based on propaganda, and for sure don’t vote based on the talking heads of the NRA, Sierra Club, Focus on the Family, the Amer Med Assoc, and all the other special interests whose only true agenda is their own agenda – they do NOT have your best interests at heart.
LionKing said: . . . at some point there must be some sort of bond that keeps us united. . .
Mike says: agree again. . . historically the ‘bond’ was the old political adage ‘a rising tide lifts all boats’ but with Bush the only boats rising are those of the wealthiest 5% who benefit from repeated, unaffordable tax cuts and loopholes. Bush broke the bond of the balanced budget that a GOP congress hammered out with Clinton. It has been nothing but a feeding frenzy at the U.S. Treasury for the past 6 years, and only the wealthiest and well-connected got an invite to come and slop. You and I will pay that bill for all this red ink - for the next 40 years. . . I should live so long. . . 99.
To Mayeagley: No, we’re not talking about “rodney king” lovefests. We used to get along for the good of the nation, we used to celebrate our differences across the aisle, smile and drink heartily WITH ‘the loyal opposition’ – all of whom were patriotic Americans. We need to get BACK to where we CAN discuss our perspectives in Congress without going for the jugular like we’ve seen with Bush, Rove, DeLay, et al, and actually SOLVE a few things for a change.
Bush going for the jugular !I WISH! you mean like hey teddy what do you want for an education bill? you got it! hes been spending like a druken sailor trying to work with the left. all that 'drinking heartily with the loyal opposition' crap just costs tax payers billions of dollars! SOLVE means spend !
....all that 'drinking heartily with the loyal opposition' crap just costs tax payers billions of dollars! SOLVE means spend !
They DID balance the budget in the 1990's, by working WITh the 'loyal opposition' across the aisle. I don't see how that cost us any billions. Seems to me it saved us many billions. Don't you like a balanced budget?
Meanwhile, Bush's tax cuts got us NOTHING but red ink (only cut I agree with is stopping the double tax on corporate dividends). The tax cuts made NO improvement to crumbling infrastructure (chunks of our bridges here are falling onto I-25); the cuts got us no solution to Army's $20B+ deficit in the facility maintenance accounts (see this week's pitiful scandal at Walter Reed Medical Center); the cuts meant that soldiers die in Iraq for lack of money to buy HUMVEE and body armor they should've had before they went over; the cuts did nothing to fix Social Security, the cuts did nothing for border security. If those hundreds of billions of giveaway dollars had been "spent" on putting people to work on REAL issues, and not pandering to the ideology of the far right, then we'd be in much better shape today than we are.
Bush "spent" HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of DOLLARS on tax cuts for the wealthy with NOTHING to show for it. How can that be good? Your logic says that solving = spending = bad. How can spending hundreds of billions and solve NOTHING be good? Are you serious? Or are you just a troll out here baiting people?
I watched that idiot on TV give us simplistic mealy mouthed crap about giving tax cuts to the wealthy cause they'd know what to do with the money, he actually said they'd take that money and invest it, open factories, provide jobs. What does he think we are, grade-school-level rubes like himself? In my town, Intel has a chip plant...1000 employees. Intel set aside a billion dollars, to open a new plant - in Vietnam... and yes, they will close the plant here within 2 years...out go another 1000 good jobs. Yeah, they're opening a new plant, and providing jobs, in Vietnam.
Nothing wrong with solving problems, even if there's a cost to do so. There is a lot that's wrong with NOT solving problems. Solve a problem now for X dollars. Let them fester for years and solve them later for 10X dollars. Far cheaper to solve problems now. Very expensive to give away money (via tax cuts) while getting nothing for it. If we had 'spent' a few billion on real border security like we should have after the 1986 amnesty, then we wouldn't have this HUGE problem on our plate today... this problem has festered for 20 years, and this one is going to cost a fortune to solve... but wait, you'd rather have the problem in your backyard than solve it, right? How much are you willing to spend to move away from it...ask the tens of thousands who are leaving CA in droves to get away from not spending/solving...
Bush "spent" HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of DOLLARS on tax cuts for the wealthy with NOTHING to show for it. How can that be good? Your logic says that solving = spending = bad. How can spending hundreds of billions and solve NOTHING be good? Are you serious? Or are you just a troll out here baiting people?
I read something recently about Cheney's investments (it was written up in Kiplinger's newsletter). Cheney has invested 1/2 his money in something tax free but the other half is invested in European investments! That blew me away! He's not even investing in the US dollar -- he's investing in Euro based items!
Ok, I actually thought we had a viable debate going here right up to the point where you said, [they are leaving CA in droves to get away from not spending!] hello! once again, if you just sit back and let you guys go you end up making our argument for us! thank you! for the record you are right about the 90's,which also makes my point. 94, Newt, strong ideolog ,builds a strong conservative winning coalition ends 40 years of liberal spending, got things accomplished. [ contract with america]
Ok, I actually thought we had a viable debate going here right up to the point where you said, [they are leaving CA in droves to get away from not spending!] hello! once again, if you just sit back and let you guys go you end up making our argument for us! thank you! for the record you are right about the 90's,which also makes my point. 94, Newt, strong ideolog ,builds a strong conservative winning coalition ends 40 years of liberal spending, got things accomplished. [ contract with america]
Agree! Loved the balanced budget. You can believe my checkbook balances EVERY time I write a check!
Seems the Contract with America went out when Newt left and when Bush came in. With the white house and congress in GOP hands, they went for the whole hog. Very early on I was neutral on tax cuts, thought it might work to help get us over the dot-com crash, but once 9-11 happened he should've rescinded the cuts, said 'sorry, we now have a war to pay for, I know you'll understand' but he didn't. He did the Johnson/Great Society thing... tried to have "guns and butter" at the same time.
I think the deficits are ruinous. We have so much red ink. What do we do if something really bad happens, like a serious recession... some bank just announced this week that they will eat $10B in losses on risky mortgage loans in the U.S... a few more banks eating losses like that can have a ripple effect... kick off some sort of financial panic... we have no cash reserves... no rainy day fund... no cushion. I'm very uncomfortable with this. I think this administration has played the economy as poorly as they did the war in Iraq.
I wish we had the middle ground we had in the 1990's, when they sat aside their differences long enough to balance OUR budget... and largely fix welfare too while they were at it. Ahh, the good old days, actually solving things, and it SAVED us billions, ehh.
Getting back to the original post, it seems no matter which party is in power, the issues don't get fixed... immigration, health care, infrastructure, loss of jobs, pollution, a set of sensible enforceable gun laws rather than the 18,000 different ones we have for every state, county, city, etc.
But one thing they have done. They have us citizens at each other's throat. Divide and conquer. They like it that way. It deflects attention away from the bordello atmosphere in congress and all the earmarks they use to pork-up the spending bills that add hundreds of billions of dollars to the deficits.
I read something recently about Cheney's investments (it was written up in Kiplinger's newsletter). Cheney has invested 1/2 his money in something tax free but the other half is invested in European investments! That blew me away! He's not even investing in the US dollar -- he's investing in Euro based items!
The classic " do as I say not as I do ".
Almost as bad as the over used " unpatriotic " tag.
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