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Actually, one thing that I have seen that I think would help a lot ironically comes from MTV. Have you ever watched their 'True Life' documentary series? Love them. They tackle subjects as diverse as being on a competitive cheerleading team to teen parenthood to poverty to drug addiction and more.... They really are very well done, and in no way glorify any of the subjects. They show life as it is for these teens and young adults without flinching...it is very touching and very real. Maybe teens ought to be watching more MTV
I can't stand reality television mainly because I think it glorifies bad behavior- but I may check that show out since there seems to be a moral message involved.
I would love to learn that MTV took the lead on preaching responsible behavior since it seems that so many parents do not. Somebody has to and the kids do tend to pay attention to MTV.
Although I'm pro choice I do not believe in abortions as a form of birth control- but as an option for someone who finds themselves in a difficult situation.
Most pro life people don't understand that and are incapable of having a productive discussion such as this one.
I too concur; I do not believe that abortion should be an additional method of birth control; here are many available. I do believe, strongly, that education is vital, especially with younger people, i.e., teenagers...and the emphasis on that education should be started earlier rather than later. I understand that some parents flip out to think that schools and organizations emphasize the importance of sex education and birth control, however, I also think those parents who flip out the most are the ones most reluctant to teach their own children...a mistake, in my opinion.
More knowledge is always a better thing...it is constructive. I recognize that kids believe that nothing is going to happen to them...happens to someone else...and when it does, who can they turn to? If they have those parents who will not teach and educate them, then in more likelihood, they may not be the most supportive parents for the kids to turn to, which is unfortunate. I have always told my kids that they can tell me anything, does not mean I will like it, does not mean I will welcome it however, they know no matter we can discuss...and that is very important.
We like to believe we are far more savvy than we used to be; more 'with it' with birth control measures, not everyone is privvy to that knowledge, or has access to birth control measures.
Getting pregnant as a way of life, that I am opposed to; it is not fair to the children nor is it fair to our society...we all in some way or other have to be responsible for our actions and our decisions regardless of how unpleasant and difficult they may be.
And unless we have walked in the footsteps of a young woman who finds herself pregnant, abandoned, frightened and with no family support and opts to terminate her pregnancy, we do not have the right to condemn or judge her. Just as a 40 year old woman, just recently separated from her husband finding herself pregnant just before her husband leaves, just lost her job and opts to terminate her pregnancy, it is her decision and her choice.
Neither are careless and uncaring women but both in very difficult situations.
[ I have always told my kids that they can tell me anything, does not mean I will like it, does not mean I will welcome it however, they know no matter we can discuss...and that is very important.
Very thoughtful post Sugarmaple and I agree with all you said. I hate that in some instances everyone who has abortions is villified when in actuality making that choice is often heartwrenching for the pregnant woman.
As for what I quoted above, I have the same relationship with my son who is a teenager. From when he was little, I always told him the truth and gave him straight answers. They weren't always comfortable questions or answers but I want him to know that he will always get the truth from me.
I posted this in another thread here yesterday but a year ago he asked me to buy him condoms. Not because he needed them at that time but because he thought it would be better to have them in case he did need them. I could not disagree with that logic and he got his condoms.
He also got a long talk about choices, being careful, and how important it is to make sure that when he does it for the first time it is with someone who is special to him rather than the first girl who offers it.
In hindsight, I'm very proud of him. It could not have been easy to ask his mother for condoms but he did.
And as I admitted yesterday, I know where he keeps them and they are all accounted for.
And I don't know if I'm naive or not, but I really don't believe he's sexually active yet. (Thank God)
Thanks and I think what you did was super! Good for you! That relationship and trust is good for both of you. I remember when my son was a teenager his friends often came to me rather than their parents, they always knew I would be a straight shooter with them and I certainly did not always agree with them, and many times they got 'the look' from me as well. One day one of those friends came to me because he was in that pickle; did not know what to do...they were both young, well relatively young, terrified to go to his parents because they would have kicked him out, said you are on your own and then what...capable of raising a family, of course not, a decent job, of course not...they privately at some point made a thorough and careful decision to terminate a pregnancy. It was very emotional for them, tore them up inside but they felt, given their circumstances, as careful as they had believed they were, well, it happened. He went with her, stayed with her and ultimately came to my house before he went home, and cried.
So for those who truly believe having a termination of pregnancy is similiar to removing a cyst, I think not. I think it is callous to make such a determination of whatever some goes through when it is to make such a decision. It is not like saying, oh, let's have pork chops tonight, burning the pork chops and saying, oh what the he&*&, we will just make something else. That kind of thinking is absurd. People are dealing with serious emotions and thought when making a decision and CHOICE such as that one.
And why are you assuming that I'm some rich salaried person, living in the lap of luxury? When my sons were young (before our daughter was born), we were a family of 4 living on a gross annual income of $13,000. No benefits. Was money tight? Danged right it was! I do happen to know what it's like to be young and broke - and have children...
That said, why does every discussion about abortion always seem to be based on the assumption that people cannot help but get pregnant in the first place?
I don't mean to be snotty. I do mean to tell you that being young and broke and raising children with a partner and an income is different than being young and female and unemployed and pregnant. The attitude that a woman who gets pregnant should face the consequences of her actions boils down to she got pregnant, she should be punished. Because women who have unplanned pregnancies get punished in our culture. First of all, who are the women who have unplanned pregnancies? Look at the statistics. They tend to be young. Just starting out in their careers, still in college, sometimes still in high school. At critical times to establishing themselves financially. Not stable at all. They tend to be minorities. Which unfortunately limits their access to support systems. Someone mentioned "adopting" these women earlier in the thread to provide them with a support system. But these "adoptions" aren't unconditional. They come with a host of judgments, and expectations. The people opening their homes are generous, loving people, but there is an undercurrent that the adoptee is being forgiven. The whole "she has strayed, but we're bringing her back into the fold." The "she was irresponsible, but she's learned her lesson." The "she didn't know any better, poor child, no one taught her a better way." I'm sorry, but most adults I know, men or women, don't like to be patronized, even if they have made mistakes. Finally, these women tend to be on the lower economic spectrum. Unplanned pregnancies can happen to anyone, but women with money, education, and security (financial, physical and emotional) statistically have fewer unplanned pregnancies. If you're on the lower economic spectrum, you are far more likely to not be medically insured. The universal access to contraceptives is mythical. Yes, most people live within twenty miles of a store selling condoms, the contraceptive most likely to fail. But how many teenage girls are buying them? In an ideal society, men and women would be equally responsible for properly using contraceptives. In our real society, the burden tends to fall to women. And if that fails, it's the woman who is pregnant, who incurs the health risks (In the US, we have made tremendous progress reducing maternal mortality during the last 60-65 years. The trend to giving birth in hospitals where medical emergencies can be swiftly addressed, and the legalization of abortion so that women could get proper medical care are largely responsible for this progress. But around the world, complications of pregnancy and childbirth remain a leading cause of death for women who are otherwise healthy and at the peak of their productivity. And the progress in the US is markedly disparate between white women and minority women who have a much greater mortality risk.) and the social and economic penalties that we as a society place on pregnant women.
The restrictions we place on abortions are inherently discriminating toward the poor. Forcing women to have multiple visits to an abortion provider places a heavier burden on a woman working for an hourly wage versus a woman who can easily afford and manage time off from a job. In rural America, where women may have to arrange travel to get to a clinic where abortions are performed, the economic burden is multiplied. Waiting periods, counseling sessions, and the dwindling availability of access to abortion effectively restricts poor women, particularly in rural areas, from having abortions, while wealthier, older and better educated women, the women who statistically have fewer unplanned pregnancies, have their access to abortion remain intact. So as a society we are engineering a system where poor women, more likely to be poorly educated and minority members, are supplying babies to wealthier, more likely to be well-educated and not minority members, of our society. This is not an ideal.
Abortion is not just a cold, impersonal medical procedure. Pregnancy may be perfectly natural, but in our culture comes with a host of rules, mores, and expectations. There is a lovely place where people can take the moral high ground, can talk about the gift of life and social responsibility and not being selfish and how there are people longing for a baby to raise. And there's a not so lovely place, where the women who have unplanned pregnancies have real faces. Where they have real bruises because they are abused. Where they have real bill collectors threatening them, and they use the stove to heat their homes at night, and count out change to make sure they have enough money for gas to get to work. There are women who aren't impoverished, but who have medical conditions that make having a baby a risky, painful endeavor. There are women who can't tell their parents for fear of being thrown out on the street, who can't tell their employers for fear of losing their jobs, who can't tell their boyfriends for fear he'll just walk away. Pregnancy is a uniquely personal, private experience. No pregnancy is the same. Only the woman knows what her entire situation is. Should we demean her by judging from our moral high ground if she's immoral, irresponsible or just plain stupid? Or could we find a true generosity of crediting this woman with having the ability to make an informed, thoughtful choice given the life she lives from the inside?
I don't mean to be snotty. I do mean to tell you that being young and broke and raising children with a partner and an income is different than being young and female and unemployed and pregnant. The attitude that a woman who gets pregnant should face the consequences of her actions boils down to she got pregnant, she should be punished. Because women who have unplanned pregnancies get punished in our culture. First of all, who are the women who have unplanned pregnancies? Look at the statistics. They tend to be young. Just starting out in their careers, still in college, sometimes still in high school. At critical times to establishing themselves financially. Not stable at all. They tend to be minorities. Which unfortunately limits their access to support systems. Someone mentioned "adopting" these women earlier in the thread to provide them with a support system. But these "adoptions" aren't unconditional. They come with a host of judgments, and expectations. The people opening their homes are generous, loving people, but there is an undercurrent that the adoptee is being forgiven. The whole "she has strayed, but we're bringing her back into the fold." The "she was irresponsible, but she's learned her lesson." The "she didn't know any better, poor child, no one taught her a better way." I'm sorry, but most adults I know, men or women, don't like to be patronized, even if they have made mistakes.
?
Wtf?! Adoptions are full of condescending people bringing the little tart back to the wholesome fold? Methinks someone has taken one too many womens studies courses...next you'll be educating us all on what Georgia O'Keefe was really painting.
Let me give you an introductory class to reality. The reality is that most adoptive parents are not judgemental of their childs birth parents. Because you see... we had sex outside of marriage to. Some of us are actually birth mothers as well as adoptive mothers, and there are those of us who have had abortions as well. Some are very religious, some are not religous at all. Some have a very regimented household, others are as free spirited as the hippies they once were. To lump everyone who adopts in the catagory that you did was hyperbole at its finest. The facts are this --- to adopt, prospective parents must take parenting classes, they must have meetings with social workers, they must prove that their homes and their psyches are fit to raise a child. If they demonstrated a negative attitude towards birth mothers they would not be allowed to adopt. Sure, they could fake it and maybe some do. But in my real life experience, they must be rare indeed as I haven't encountered any. But I have met adoptive parents who are loving, funny, massively rich, middleclass and lowermiddle class. I met aparents who are educated and those that work blue collar jobs. I have met aparents who spent months in the hospital next to their child as he was treated for brain cancer, and another mother who did the same while her son was being treated for a congenital heart defect. I met aparents who religously write letters to birth mothers an ocean away, and aparents who had their childs birth parents present at their childs christening.
I have no idea what world you pontificate from, but I am ever so glad I don't live in it.
Wtf?! Adoptions are full of condescending people bringing the little tart back to the wholesome fold? Methinks someone has taken one too many womens studies courses...next you'll be educating us all on what Georgia O'Keefe was really painting.
Let me give you an introductory class to reality. The reality is that most adoptive parents are not judgemental of their childs birth parents. Because you see... we had sex outside of marriage to. Some of us are actually birth mothers as well as adoptive mothers, and there are those of us who have had abortions as well. Some are very religious, some are not religous at all. Some have a very regimented household, others are as free spirited as the hippies they once were. To lump everyone who adopts in the catagory that you did was hyperbole at its finest. The facts are this --- to adopt, prospective parents must take parenting classes, they must have meetings with social workers, they must prove that their homes and their psyches are fit to raise a child. If they demonstrated a negative attitude towards birth mothers they would not be allowed to adopt. Sure, they could fake it and maybe some do. But in my real life experience, they must be rare indeed as I haven't encountered any. But I have met adoptive parents who are loving, funny, massively rich, middleclass and lowermiddle class. I met aparents who are educated and those that work blue collar jobs. I have met aparents who spent months in the hospital next to their child as he was treated for brain cancer, and another mother who did the same while her son was being treated for a congenital heart defect. I met aparents who religously write letters to birth mothers an ocean away, and aparents who had their childs birth parents present at their childs christening.
I have no idea what world you pontificate from, but I am ever so glad I don't live in it.
You misunderstood me. I was referring to a post earlier in the thread about families adopting the pregnant mother. I wasn't referring to couples adopting unwanted babies.
You misunderstood me. I was referring to a post earlier in the thread about families adopting the pregnant mother. I wasn't referring to couples adopting unwanted babies.
My apologies then
I would hope that they aren't pissy about it....if you are going to do someting like 'adopt' a pregnant woman to help her out, then you shouldn't rub her nose in it. Imho, that would certainly be complete douchebaggery on the part of the 'mentors'.
I would hope that they aren't pissy about it....if you are going to do someting like 'adopt' a pregnant woman to help her out, then you shouldn't rub her nose in it. Imho, that would certainly be complete douchebaggery on the part of the 'mentors'.
It's really hard to help someone out without making them feel like they need the help. It's one thing to give someone a ride because their car has broken down, and a totally different thing to give someone a home for nine months while waiting for a baby to be born. The pregnant woman is deeply aware of her situation, of her dependence, and sensitive to how she is viewed. Hormones make her even more sensitive. There is a perception that a debt is being incurred, that perception and the degree to which it is held by either party in this relationship, colors everything. Everything about a pregnancy is so personal, so unique, that I feel compelled to personalize the situation whenever people start drifting into the abstract about it. I know I go overboard with that, but I just really want people to see that pregnancy and abortion aren't just social issues, they are painfully real to the women who face them, these women don't fall into sweeping categories, they are the women we meet and talk to every day, they are you and I and our mothers and sisters. They have faces and voices and stories and secrets. None of them fits perfectly into some category, into a checkmarked box under "reason why I'm seeking an abortion". There is a story for each of these women. It is complicated and troubling and sometimes they are to blame for their choices and sometimes they aren't. When we generalize about this issue, we are dismissing those stories, those lives. We are performing a disservice to these women. It's like kicking them when they are already down.
I wonder how many pro-lifers there are on this site and I wonder how many pro-lifers, in true conscience, would, if given the choice to know a woman was considering terminating a pregnancy would offer to adopt that child...and if not, where should that child go if no one was willing to adopt...a life in the system? foster homes? and the hopes that someone else would adopt?
There is an abyss of unmet demand for adoptable children.
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