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Let me rephrase my question so I can get a clear understanding of your point of view. If the Russians had in their possession prior to the Beslan incident a person they knew had possession of information of upcoming plans and they totured him to get it thereby preventing the slaughter of 186 children would it be justified?
Your relatively calm response is inspiring and I thank you in advance for not getting ugly like so many others. Yet, I expect you chose this scenario because it would seem heartless to answer in any way other than yes considering there are children involved.
But, my answer is still NO. It is based on my religious/spiritual beliefs that would take far too long to elaborate. In a nutshell, I don't ascribe to the victim/victimizer mentality that is so prevalent. It is exactly what keeps this world from moving forward into greater understanding.
Neither you nor neil0311 apparently understand. The Geneva Convention is not controlling when it comes to non-uniformed personnel. Neil was perfectly right about that. He is just too goddamn thick to know there are other anti-torture laws on the books. The right-wingers on the forum apparently heard the phrase "Geneva Convention" too many times and now can't stop saying it, it's become almost a tic of some kind, like Tourette's Syndrome.
Hey dude, I don't know if you got the memo but since your fairly anti government you're a right winger too.
Love the name calling. Someone who believes in Democracy is anti-American, huh? So John McCain who denounces any form of torture is now a Leftist, Commie.....?
The fact that after the investigation into mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the Bush Administration denounced our own troops, yet continued to torture others is not only hypocritical, but shows his lack of character. You can stand on your head and cluck like a chicken, call me every dirty name in the book and it won't change my mind.
Do I want those responsible for the WTC attacks punished? Yes, of course. I doubt if anyone here wants terrorists or even suspected terrorists to be released into our society. But did we torture Timothy McVeigh? Why not? He was executed in 2001 by lethal injection, not tortured so maybe we might get more information from him. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't cry if he was, just as I think Zubaydah should have his testicles cut off. But emotions & thoughts are not actions. What you keep insisting I don't understand is that someone who is not a prisoner of war can be tortured, which means that I can be arrested and tortured just for posting this comment on city-data, right? After all, if people who are not in uniform can be labeled as "terrorists" and, therefore, lose the right to fair treatment under the law, then what is preventing the government from imprisoning and/or torturing any private citizen?
Again, Bush said: If there is somebody captured," President George W. Bush told reporters on March 23, 2003, "I expect those people to be treated humanely. If not, the people who mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals."
Bush was devious & self-serving, letting our troops take the heat for acts he condoned and using them as scapecoats to coverup his own crimes. Watergate was a minor cover-up compared to this, yet Nixon would have been impeached had he not resigned. When leaders feel they can do something illegal just because they are in power, that's when we no longer have a Democracy with elected officials but dictators.
Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba (retired) "After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes," Taguba wrote. "The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."
I guess you're going to call him a traitor, lefty, commie....and say he should leave the country. Or maybe you'll insist he knows little about the military.
When our security erodes away and we get attacked again like in New York City I am just going to turn off the TV and not care about this nation. I have gotten to the point where our liberal government officials care little about the safety of our nation’s citizens. It’s all their idea of being fair when there are people who will not stop until they see our down fall. The day an attack happens I will be support secession.
Because the RESULTS and FACTS say so. Sorry that it's an inconvenient truth for you, but we're talking about waterboarding and interrogation techniques...not torture...and it worked...FACT.
It did? Why do so many people on this board figure "If I say it, it must be so." Did you read the released memos?
From the Pentagon
"Conceptually, proponents envision the application of torture as a mean to expedite the exploitation process. In essence, physical and/or psychological duress are viewed as alternatives to the more time consuming conventional interrogation process. The error inherent in this line of thinking is the assumption that, through torture, the interrogator can extract reliable and accurate intelligence. History and a consideration of human behavior would appear to refute this assumption."
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Originally Posted by Stac2007
When our security erodes away and we get attacked again like in New York City I am just going to turn off the TV and not care about this nation. I have gotten to the point where our liberal government officials care little about the safety of our nation’s citizens. It’s all their idea of being fair when there are people who will not stop until they see our down fall. The day an attack happens I will be support secession.
The only part of this I agree with is that there are people who will not stop until they see us fall. However, using torture only alienates those who would otherwise be our allies.
When our security erodes away and we get attacked again like in New York City I am just going to turn off the TV and not care about this nation. I have gotten to the point where our liberal government officials care little about the safety of our nation’s citizens. It’s all their idea of being fair when there are people who will not stop until they see our down fall. The day an attack happens I will be support secession.
It is not the government that is ultimately responsible for your safety, it's you. So instead of being a patriotic American on the day we are attacked, you will help the "terrorists" by supporting the further erosion of your country by blaming other Americans (instead of the terrorists who actually did the deed). Um, OK.
The government doesn't do anything really to protect you even though you pay the bills. The Defense Department exists to protect the government and its officials, NOT you and me. It doesn't matter whether the government is "run" by liberals or conservatives, that fact doesn't change. In fact those competing ideologies serve to divide us up. And based on your post, it's working.
What is safety? How does arming yourself to the teeth keep you safe? Is the threat STILL that large after you've spent tens of trillions of dollars of tax money? What did you get for that money if you're living in fear every day? You see, it is that fear that drives people to torture others. And the vicious cycle continues...
Hey dude, I don't know if you got the memo but since your fairly anti government you're a right winger too.
OK, fair point. But these days the largest share of what styles itself the right is not anti-government or libertarian, but nationalist and militarist and reactionary. The talk radio types.
When our security erodes away and we get attacked again like in New York City I am just going to turn off the TV and not care about this nation. I have gotten to the point where our liberal government officials care little about the safety of our nation’s citizens. It’s all their idea of being fair when there are people who will not stop until they see our down fall. The day an attack happens I will be support secession.
Support it now. That way they can attack you rather than us.
Support it now. That way they can attack you rather than us.
Oh my. My views on this particular issues stem from historical and pragmatic teachers. War is not supposed to be 'humane' or governed by laws. If your nation is in a war, you better be in it to win it. I rather admired the view of warfare that the early Romans, or more so, the Spartans believed in. When your nation goes to war, the goal is the utter annihalation of your enemy. Nothing less will do. Oh, yea, I know, we are soooo much more 'evolved' now. At least some folks feel that the US is(or should be) and the rest of the world will follow our example, if, we just LEAD them. Show them by example. What unadulterated dreaming. These UN treaties are good for toilet paper, and holding up the Constitution as relevant to enemy combatants( read terrorists in this case) is blitheringly ignorant. Whatever.....'rule of law' on the battlefield, abiding by treaties that mean absolutly NOTHING to our enemy other than knowing that they have nothing to fear by going to war with us, other than the beautiful death they seek anyway. Yep, this country is in deep doo doo. Rabbits fighting coyotes.
Oh my. My views on this particular issues stem from historical and pragmatic teachers. War is not supposed to be 'humane' or governed by laws. If your nation is in a war, you better be in it to win it.
Only an American could fail to notice the obvious: that getting out of it is an option.
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I rather admired the view of warfare that the early Romans, or more so, the Spartans believed in. When your nation goes to war, the goal is the utter annihalation of your enemy. Nothing less will do. Oh, yea, I know, we are soooo much more 'evolved' now. At least some folks feel that the US is(or should be) and the rest of the world will follow our example, if, we just LEAD them. Show them by example.
I hope that the rest of the world follows our example, but I do not care to descend to the rest of the world's level whether they do or not. (I should really say "to the level of a banana republic", since some countries have higher standards of human rights than the United States.)
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These UN treaties are good for toilet paper, and holding up the Constitution as relevant to enemy combatants( read terrorists in this case) is blitheringly ignorant.
Treaties are part of our domestic law. I proved that to you once, and I must say I admire your tenacity in dusting yourself off and pretending you hadn't heard. I proved the same thing to neil0311 and he hasn't bothered to come back (I suspect he's now wetting himself, crying in his closet and mumbling something about David Rockefeller and black helicopters.)
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. My views on this particular issues stem from historical and pragmatic teachers. War is not supposed to be 'humane' or governed by laws. If your nation is in a war, you better be in it to win it. I rather admired the view of warfare that the early Romans, or more so, the Spartans believed in. When your nation goes to war, the goal is the utter annihalation of your enemy. Nothing less will do. Oh, yea, I know, we are soooo much more 'evolved' now. At least some folks feel that the US is(or should be) and the rest of the world will follow our example, if, we just LEAD them. Show them by example
