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You were in your prior post, which is why I responded to your comment.
Let's get one thing straight. I NEVER said a word about censoring. YOU said CENSORING. NOT me. I said sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting. I said trying to drown out other people. I said ignoring people. CENSORSHIP is a different animal, and I deliberately chose not to go there.
There is nothing of merit put forth by any liberal. Their repeated criminal activity, abject hatred of the US, and dishonorable conduct devalues anything they have to say. Only those who have earned respect have anything of merit worth reading or listening to, and there is nothing worthy of respect among liberals.
Do you at least acknowledge that one could make the following statement and it would be as equally valid as yours:
"There is nothing of merit put forth by any conservative. Their repeated criminal activity, abject hatred of the US, and dishonorable conduct devalues anything they have to say. Only those who have earned respect have anything of merit worth reading or listening to, and ther is nothing worthy of respect among conservatives."
Every issue for which you accuse liberals of being guilty has ample circumstances in which conservatives are equally if not more guilty. One need only look at the past 8 years for evidence of this fact - criminal behavior, lying, undermining the Constittutional foundation of the US, and dishonorable conduct (sexually and professionally)...
The fact that you only see wrong-doing on one side of the ideological aisle speaks more of your own limited perspective than any transcendent truth.
Best to you in your journey to a greater understanding! That's why we're here!
Well, what you call villains I would simply call people working within the system. Politics is brutal and, on the whole, I'm okay with Obama's level of ethics. Yes, politicians need to spin the truth or sometimes flat out lie, but overall Obama's been a lot better than the Bush administration (though Bush himself wasn't too bad, just in over his head a bit).
I'm not really talking about lying. Politicians are also totally giving in to lobbyists and corporate interests. Basically accepting bribes and cooperating with big businesses. It resembles a business partenership more than Governance.
That's the main criminal activity i'm talking about and the Obama Administration is doing it just like Bush did. Just like the next Adminisration will. They are already bought and sold by the time they get into the white house.
You were in your prior post, which is why I responded to your comment.
That is your opinion, I happen to disagree. Or am I not allowed to disagree with your opinion?
There is nothing of merit put forth by any liberal. Their repeated criminal activity, abject hatred of the US, and dishonorable conduct devalues anything they have to say. Only those who have earned respect have anything of merit worth reading or listening to, and there is nothing worthy of respect among liberals.
I happen to agree with those who "say that no one's position gets changed on these threads", and I would further assert that those who say their positions have changed never really held a specific position to begin with. The purpose of these threads is to voice our opinions, not to change people's minds.
You have your opinion, I have mine. Of course you are free to express your views, and rather than put you on "ignore", I'll continue to read those views and comment on them. I think though, in your unwillingness to consider the possibility that other people might have valuable contributions to a discussion, despite their political leanings, that you are closing off yourself from some insights that might serve you. Putting up walls doesn't just keep the riff-raff out. It keeps out good things, too. Are you posting on these forums as a way of keeping doors and windows in those walls?
But I think when you start to get to know some of the posters on these threads, there are many that are passionate about their beliefs, but their beliefs don't always fall into the party line. There are nuances in these arguments. I don't want to name anyone specifically, but I've found that the majority of the posters, even some of the extreme ones, have views and perspectives that are much more complex than mere party identification. And discovering how much more complex they are, I've found quite rewarding.
I agree. There are lots of smart people out there who are not sheep to these labels. But they represent the minority.
I've lived in very liberal and very conservative places. And i've seen that extreme group thinking happens in both places. It's crazy, but a lot of people really do just totally join a side, and it's not only their political beliefs, it's also their personality, their image, their lifestyle they just totally BECOME a conservative or liberal 100%. Lots and lots of Americans do this unfortunately.
I agree. There are lots of smart people out there who are not sheep to these labels. But they represent the minority.
I've lived in very liberal and very conservative places. And i've seen that extreme group thinking happens in both places. It's crazy, but a lot of people really do just totally join a side, and it's not only their political beliefs, it's also their personality, their image, their lifestyle they just totally BECOME a conservative or liberal 100%. Lots and lots of Americans do this unfortunately.
I trust that you have seen people lose themselves in this way, and maybe that's true for some of the posters, but then maybe they're only lost, and even when they're reciting the talking points, if they're reading the other posts, they are engaging in the debate. There's still an individual behind those talking points. The challenge isn't to dissuade them, or to convince them, the challenge is to listen and to connect with them. Americans are busy people, and sometimes politics requires an investment of time that they cannot afford to make. No one has the time to adequately research every issue. I've been trying to read HR 3200, and after a month, I'm still not halfway through it. There's a lot of information that's offered in these threads, and not all of it matches my opinions. When something is especially challenging, it picques my interest, causes me to do research, and not just via the internet, as wonderful a resource as that is. The more I know, the more I know I need to learn, the more that there is out there to investigate.
I'm not really talking about lying. Politicians are also totally giving in to lobbyists and corporate interests. Basically accepting bribes and cooperating with big businesses. It resembles a business partenership more than Governance.
That's the main criminal activity i'm talking about and the Obama Administration is doing it just like Bush did. Just like the next Adminisration will. They are already bought and sold by the time they get into the white house.
And I can assure you that if you ran for and became president, you too would be bought and sold by the time you got there.
It's the system, and no one can get to that level of power without having doors opened by those with power and money and a desire to influence legislation once you're in there.
I'm not saying this is right or that you don't have a good point, but we should not hold a president (who, in the end, is just another cog in the system, albeit a big cog) to unrealistic expectations and dismiss him as a villain because he's living in the real world.
I accept the lobbyists and business corruption as part of the game and look to efforts to create better transparency or to use that corruption for a greater good, and I think Obama's doing that.
I trust that you have seen people lose themselves in this way, and maybe that's true for some of the posters, but then maybe they're only lost, and even when they're reciting the talking points, if they're reading the other posts, they are engaging in the debate. There's still an individual behind those talking points. The challenge isn't to dissuade them, or to convince them, the challenge is to listen and to connect with them. Americans are busy people, and sometimes politics requires an investment of time that they cannot afford to make. No one has the time to adequately research every issue. I've been trying to read HR 3200, and after a month, I'm still not halfway through it. There's a lot of information that's offered in these threads, and not all of it matches my opinions. When something is especially challenging, it picques my interest, causes me to do research, and not just via the internet, as wonderful a resource as that is. The more I know, the more I know I need to learn, the more that there is out there to investigate.
I know what you're saying. Sometimes there is a lot more going on in a persons head than they can articulate.
People also tend to form very strong opinions about things they don't understand. The way I see it, if these people do not understand these issues well, they should just admit it, instead of trying to take a side.
I choose not to take strong sides on most issues myself for several reasons.
For one thing, even if I study a lot, I usually do not fully understand to issue and there are other facets to it that I am missing.
For another thing, most issues are not black and white. The truth is a huge grey area. There are multiple truths to the same issues.
I guess I just wish that more people out there would accept that the truth is a grey area, it's not black and white.
It's not about understanding politics in depth so much. But it's about not acting like you do understand everything about it, and then forming a strong opinion on it when they shouldn't. There are too many over-opinionated people out there who need to just loosen up and admit they dont know it all.
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