Socialism 2.0 (Congress, legal, weapons, highway)

[ovcatto]

Socialism, political theory and practice.

Discuss:


I have no idea what happened to the previous thread on the topic of socialism, it seemed pretty civil to me, so let's start over and this time let's stay within the TOS, or at least the secret one that we apparently violated.

[babby pueblo]

Originally Posted by roysoldboy

I actually hate to do this but I don't think that Soviet Communism worked very well. They got as far as the Dictator of the Proletariat and never advanced a bit after that.

Your explanation about the workers running a factory is great as far as it goes but do you understand that someone has to take care of upkeep, work schedules and the like and most common workers just don't make it for that kind of work.

In the Soviet Union the government tried to run those factories and they did a fairly poor job except on weapons and space equipment. Anyway, they tried to run the cities on the backs of the farmers and the farmers stopped working. Finally they gave the poor souls their own plots on the collective farms where they were allowed to raise food for their own good and take the excess to town to sell there. They worked very well in their garden plots and let the collective ground go to hell. In 1977, close to their end, I took a class under a professor that spent nearly a year traveling in the Soviet Union and he told some very interesting stories, primarily about the rural people.

This professor took a chance on getting hauled off to prison by smuggling in a camera and taking pictures. You wouldn't believe the rattle trap tractors they had to work with. They got the collective tractor on a schedule that wasn't made according to their rain and other necessaries. The farmers said that when they got the tractor they could count on repairing it before they got to use it.

In the Ukraine, one of the best wheat producing areas in the world, the rural highways were so out of repair that they got little wheat to the elevator. They didn't worry about endgates for their trucks and most of the wheat leaked out the back. The roads were so full of pot holes that they could barely move on the way to the elevator. Yes he showed pictures of those things going down the road and they were without endgates and the roads were full of potholes. Yep, that Communism worked like a charm for the birds along those roads.

I think that communism and socialism sound a whole lot better than they work. The European socialists are getting along fine especially in the upper echelons of the government.

Once in 1952 I had to give a heckling speech and thought that I would surely get heckled a lot if I talked about communism so I tried to convince that group of college sophomores that communism is where its at. Not one came from them until I stopped in fear that their looks of acceptance were too believing. When I asked them if they had any questions there was still no answer. Finally I asked them what would happen if the Dictator of the Proletariat didn't wither and die as the system promised it would. They just sat and looked. I had convinced them that it was the only way to go. Back at that time I was very scared I had screwed up so with permission I showed them all the weaknesses and how it just couldn't work.

I promise you that socialism here won't work either. The government will have to rule with an iron hand for a long time until they get rid of all the older people and down to the kids that are already being prepared for socialism.

Your explanation is just what I would expect from someone who had been taken in by the theory who had really very little knowledge about it all.

I am sorry but I think you are really believing in it all and you will find you are wrong when it gets here.

No need to be sorry, I'm glad you took the time to post this.

Russia was essentially a non-industrialized feudal state before the USSR. They were peasants, a dictatorship of the proletariat is nigh impossible when the masses had parents that were literally born into serfdom. So when the Bolsheviks gained power, not only did they refuse to include any other parties in their sham democracy (they latter conceded and allowed others "in", but on conditions that essentially rendered non-Bolsheviks powerless), but they created a dictatorship of the party to fill the void left by the non-existent dictatorship of the proletariat.

They honestly believed that because Russia was the "weakest link in the chain", they should spearhead the worldwide revolution. Imagine their surprise when the trodden masses didn't rise up in their respective countries in solidarity with soviet Russia.

How would you explain to someone who doesn't understand socialism how a business would run (ideally, not realistically in your eyes since I know you aren't a socialist)?

[geofra]

I don't believe that government should own any means of production. Government is not efficient, not risk taking, not interested in profit. An industry can stagnate if owned or even significantly interfered with by government.
That being said, I do believe that government should inject itself into the marketplace to keep it fair, legal, and working smoothly because a capitalist market can get corrupted.

[jetgraphics]

I am not surprised that most Americans don't have a good grasp of socialism. Since 1935, the USA has been a socialist nation.
Socialism (and communism) by definition, abolish private property (absolute ownership by the individual) and replace it with qualified ownership, with the State (collective) having paramount claim.

For an illustration of American socialism, consider that the 5th amendment plainly states that private property shall not be taken for public use without just compensation.

So when you witness property being TAKEN by the government, and no compensation given, you can assume that the property in question is NOT private property.

In American law, it's clear that the American people are sovereign, and their private property rights are protected. But woe to the "Voluntary" Socialist, who signed up for his account and number. He has surrendered his birthright of sovereignty, freedom and independence, in exchange for access to entitlements (charity).

If you want more proof, write a polite letter to your Congressman and ask for a copy of the law the compels all AMERICANS to enroll into Socialist InSecurity. And ask for a copy of the law that punishes any American who does not participate.

Then ask yourself, who benefits from the widespread belief that one must have "the number" before he can work in his own country? Or that one cannot hire an American worker who is not duly enrolled and enumerated?
Why is deception so necessary ?
Would the truth trigger a [deleted on orders of the Ministry of Security]

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STOP READING THIS
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You have been warned

[babby pueblo]

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STOP READING THIS
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You have been warned

If only this were at the top of your post.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

In American law, it's clear that the American people are sovereign, and their private property rights are protected. But woe to the "Voluntary" Socialist, who signed up for his account and number. He has surrendered his birthright of sovereignty, freedom and independence, in exchange for access to entitlements (charity).

More rant and unadulterated whackiness out of the extreme and potentially quite dangerous Sovereign Citizen movement. Posse Comitatus. Christian Identity. William Gale. The worst that a bunch of disconnected religious zealots, gun nuts, tax protestors, and assorted other defenders of Individual Freedom can come up with. Their roots lie in the white supremacist movement, and their Mecca in the militia camps and compounds that dot the otherwise beautiful wilderness of Montana and Idaho. America was lost, these folks will tell you, the day the 14th Amendment was ratified. Equal rights? Ha! All the amendment did was turn supreme "sovereign citizens" into lowly "federal citizens", and all true men of flesh and blood have been fighting to get their freedom back ever since. Confused and pathetic would be two of the words this movement tends to bring to my mind, and these arguments -- seen with increasing frequency on CD -- the same...