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No he had no cause to taze anyone, but under NC law he should have arrested the individual with the weapon. Police officer screwed up. Not the first time.
You just won't give up even when proven wrong, repeatedly. It's not a good personalitly/character trait.
Actually you can stop every driver and ask for a license. What you can't do is ask drivers selected for some non judicial reasons, such as race, to produce their license.
Actually you can't stop any driver for anything other than traffic control, public safety, or probable cause. A stop for any other cause is a legal liability issue in most states; IME any LEO worth his pay will find a PC for a traffic stop if he wants to check someone. Failure to have a PC ready would qualify as stupid and in most agencies would result in an official reprimand as a minimum.
I promise you I was not trying to be condescending.
Bill, I can agree, if you can, to leave out all sarcasm and condescension when responding to each other.
With that, lets start with what we agree on:
-There was nothing wrong with me taping: "I never said or suggested there was anything wrong with your recording."
-I was not in violation of the law: "then realized that you had a gun...while not illegal..."
Here is where we disagree:
-The motive of his reaction
Your take: He reacted because of my presence
"He stepped past the person he was talking to, and towards you, as soon as you stepped into his situation, and well before we saw him notice that you were carrying."
I disagree. I walked up and stopped at :09 seconds. He looked at me, with out taking a single step toward me, and said "You're trespassing to. Get back over there."
At :13 seconds he CLEARLY looks down at my firearm on my right hip and THEN his aggression raised and he perused me. "Hold..wait...Hold what you've got!" :15 seconds his right hand is on his sidearm.
He then proceeded to barrage me wih questions without probable cause that I had broken ANY law or statute.
His investigation of me was warrantless and without PC.
This may be true but that does not give him legal right to investigate me.
I'm sure you would agree that convenience stores experience more shootings than abortion clinics. Does that mean if I'm in a convenience store OC'ing my location is PC enough to investiate me?
Ok. So, the officer tells you you are trespassing, and asks you to get back away from him.
He sees your weapon, and persues you aggressively as a result.
Now, the police officer may have been incorrect, but I'm not. He tells you, right there on the video, that you had in fact broken a law, and were trespassing. But let's put that aside for a minute.
Can we agree that you were in a place, in a situation, where tensions were heightened? Where there was some possibility, at least in the minds of some, for conflict, for violence? All we have to do is google Abortion clinic violence and we get pages of info, so it would be silly to think otherwise, right?
Can we further agree that the police were called by someone complaining that you, or those "preaching" in that parking lot, were trespassing? So a police officer on the scene in such a situation sees one of the trespassing "protesters" coming toward him with a gun strapped to his side. Do you think it unreasonable that he is immediately alarmed, and wants to make sure nothing happens?
You'll notice that I'm not arguing, have not argued, that you did anything illegal, or that you shouldn't be allowed to carry your weapon. I'm a supporter of the Constitution, of small government, of the peoples rights. I simply believe that the officer didn't do anything wrong either, and that he was trying to be sure the situation didn't escalate. Could he have done that a little more professionally, and with a little less agression? Sure he could have. Could you have reacted a little differently, and calmly answered his questions? Yes, you could have. And you could have asserted your right to be there, your right to assemble peacably, your right to preach in that place. Perhaps in a converstaion withthe officer you would have learned why he thought you were trespassing, or who had made that allegation. You chose the more agressive and combative "Am I being detained" Am I being detained? Am I being detained?" Perfectly legal. But maybe not the best way to go. In my opinion.
Bill I can see where you are coming from. There are still just a FEW things we don't see eye to eye on yet.
Quote:
Can we further agree that the police were called by someone complaining that you, or those "preaching" in that parking lot, were trespassing? So a police officer on the scene in such a situation sees one of the trespassing "protesters" coming toward him with a gun strapped to his side.
Honestly I don't know if someone called or if the first officer was simply driving by and saw them standing there and stopped.
But let's say, for sake of this discussion, she was called. When she came, she was told by the men that they were not trespassing and that they knew the property lines and had had police tell them where they could and could not be. She doesn't care and tells them to leave anyway (an unlawful order). She calls for backup. He arrives. He goes through the same motions.
So where we disagree is "So a police officer on the scene in such a situation sees one of the trespassing "protesters"".
They both KNEW no one was trespassing. They wanted people to move because quote "I said so".
The other part where we don't see eye to eye is where you say I could have responded differently. I don't know any other way I could have responded and preserved my rights. I'm HONESTLY open for input on how I could have done something better to have diffused the situation WHILE preserving ALL of my rights.
Consider, however, within 15 seconds he has his hand on his weapon, is aggressively approaching me, is shouting unlawful demands and asking questions I'm not required to answer.
These are all of the demands and questions shouted at me in 35-40 seconds (mind you I'm backing away his whole time):
"You're trespassing too" (a lie)
"Back over there" (unlawful demand)
"Hold..wait...hold what you've got" (hand now on gun walking me down)
"Turn around" (unlawful demand AND a threat to my safety)
"Let me see your permit" (unlawful demand)
"Take your hand out of your pocket" (maybe unlawful but I don't want him more edgy, thus for my safety I comply)
"Let me see some ID" (unlawful demand)
"I need to see your drivers license" (unlawful demand)
"How old are you" (sounds like an investigatory inquiry I wonder if I'm being detained so I ask)
"Hold on a minute" (sounds like a demand to someone being detained, I ask again)
"You will be right here shortly" (a threat to detain me when no law has been broken on my part and there is no PC or RS that I am going to break one)
So again, I am honestly open for suggestions but I don't see how it could have been better with THAT particular cop. Maybe another one but not him
To borrow a phase, You're a modest man, with much to be modest about.
Wow! Once again I'm impressed with the content of your replies. I'm so grateful we met. Would it be ok if I followed you around the forum and take notes?
Wow! Once again I'm impressed with the content of your replies. I'm so grateful we met. Would it be ok if I followed you around the forum and take notes?
Rule of thumb: if you're following anyone coming from DC, make sure you do the exact opposite of what they recommend.
Some night when he's all alone and those red lights bounce off his mirror he'll get a dose of the real world
I just ate at a burger joint and guess who JUUUST so happened to be there? GPD. And guess who JUUUST happened to be OC'ing again? You guessed it: Yours truly.
Boompa I gotta hand it to ya for the heads up. That "real world" was something else. I walked passed the officers at least 3 imes with my weapon side to them (coming in, going to the counter to pay etc.)
Man, I tell you, in this "real world" decent, law abiding people exercise their right to OC and LE who know the law leave them alone.
I ate my burger, they ate their dogs. We all left happy and full.
I don't know how much more of this "real world" I can handle...Struuu-gle!
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