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If the stimulus creates 3 million jobs directly then its done exactly what it was supposed to do.
There is an argument to be made that it wasn't big enough (which is what paul krugman suggests), especially considering that the recession was worse than expected.
Let me count on my fingers again. Net job losses have INCREASED under Obama, not decreased. The stimulus failed, and Obama cannot go on forever noting the new fantasy measure of "saved jobs". I guess I still have my job and that would also count as a "saved job". Just as in Japan, "stimulus" due to massive federal spending, does nothing.
Let me count on my fingers again. Net job losses have INCREASED under Obama, not decreased. The stimulus failed, and Obama cannot go on forever noting the new fantasy measure of "saved jobs". I guess I still have my job and that would also count as a "saved job". Just as in Japan, "stimulus" due to massive federal spending, does nothing.
Don't try to think so much, the answer isn't as hard as you are trying to make it.
The answer is: we have more jobs with the stimulus than without, regardless of how you want to nitpick the numbers (640,000 or not).
Some wackjobs on this forum pray to the free market god without realizing that the free market is what has been losing jobs.
Lets try another simple exercise.
In January, I make a promise to give you $20 a year from then.
At that time, you have $100 in the bank.
So you look forward to having $120 in a year.
The following January, I give you the promised $20.
But you've spent all your money.
So your total comes up to only $20.
That isn't my fault, that is yours.
In that analogy, you may have guessed that you represent the free market and I represent the stimulus.
So while I may have done my part, the part out of my control (the free market) went and spent a bunch of money (lost a bunch of jobs).
Do you understand that the money spent on the stimulus this year is roughly 1/100th of our GDP?
The data presented is what we have, which you can quibble about with your right-wing buddies (oh, that employer said they created 10 jobs when it was 10 part times jobs - obama can't count, lolz).
Data or ****.
I'm on the tired side of people such as yourself that deny reality, with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to back up their words.
Maybe you could recite the declaration of independence while claiming its the constitution?
Thats a neat 'patriotic' repub trick.
Data ?!?! If you've been paying attention AT ALL you would know how your so called 'data' was created. Less hackery please. Don't waste my time if you're not going to think for yourself.
Data ?!?! If you've been paying attention AT ALL you would know how your so called 'data' was created. Less hackery please. Don't waste my time if you're not going to think for yourself.
Waste your time? lol.
If I had your inability to form an argument based on fact I wouldn't go tossing stones.
Location: The Land Mass Between NOLA and Mobile, AL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by compJockey
Don't try to think so much, the answer isn't as hard as you are trying to make it.
The answer is: we have more jobs with the stimulus than without, regardless of how you want to nitpick the numbers (640,000 or not).
Some wackjobs on this forum pray to the free market god without realizing that the free market is what has been losing jobs.
Lets try another simple exercise.
In January, I make a promise to give you $20 a year from then.
At that time, you have $100 in the bank.
So you look forward to having $120 in a year.
The following January, I give you the promised $20.
But you've spent all your money.
So your total comes up to only $20.
That isn't my fault, that is yours.
In that analogy, you may have guessed that you represent the free market and I represent the stimulus.
So while I may have done my part, the part out of my control (the free market) went and spent a bunch of money (lost a bunch of jobs).
Do you understand that the money spent on the stimulus this year is roughly 1/100th of our GDP?
What compjockey is saying is true. If there is a net loss of X number of jobs because of the free market, but there is a Y gain of jobs because of stimulus, then the stimulus is working. It is helping to staunch the hemorrhaging of jobs. It may be that the stimulus isn't strong enough to do the job. It may be that it is like trying to stop the bleeding from a knife wound with a band-aid.
Don't try to think so much, the answer isn't as hard as you are trying to make it.
The answer is: we have more jobs with the stimulus than without, regardless of how you want to nitpick the numbers (640,000 or not).
Some wackjobs on this forum pray to the free market god without realizing that the free market is what has been losing jobs.
Lets try another simple exercise.
In January, I make a promise to give you $20 a year from then.
At that time, you have $100 in the bank.
So you look forward to having $120 in a year.
The following January, I give you the promised $20.
But you've spent all your money.
So your total comes up to only $20.
That isn't my fault, that is yours.
In that analogy, you may have guessed that you represent the free market and I represent the stimulus.
So while I may have done my part, the part out of my control (the free market) went and spent a bunch of money (lost a bunch of jobs).
Do you understand that the money spent on the stimulus this year is roughly 1/100th of our GDP?
So, Compjockey, how can say that the stimulus is effective, when jobs have been lost, not gained? Obama, at the inception of the stimulus, said himself that it would produce jobs. It did not. THE GOAL of the "stimulus" was not achieved, much as such policies have failed in the past. You see, this "saved jobs" contention is a statistical fantasy land that cannot be measured. I could also say that I cast a "spell" on the economy and saved 100 million jobs that would have been otherwise lost. It is difficult to disprove such a contention, yet it is equally as ridiculous as noting the "success' of a policy which has resulted in net loss of jobs. It is analagous to a military commander saying that a defeat would have been much worse in another's hands. A defeat is a defeat.
By the same token, can we say that the subprime mortage disaster helped the economy, as there were some jobs created during that time, yet there was a massive net loss of jobs.
I can see your logic now
Obama stimulus = subprime mortgage meltdown
So, would you suggest yet another stimulus or two? As you think the first one was so successful, two or three more and we should be home free!
Last edited by hawkeye2009; 11-08-2009 at 04:55 PM..
So, Compjockey, how can say that the stimulus is effective, when jobs have been lost, not gained? Obama, at the inception of the stimulus, said himself that it would produce jobs. It did not. THE GOAL of the "stimulus" was not achieved, much as such policies have failed in the past.
Nice pile there, Hawkeye.
Quote:
You see, this "saved jobs" contention is a statistical fantasy land that cannot be measured.
Why is this so hard for some people?
The states would have had to cut MANY MORE JOBS if they hadn't received help from the stimulus.
That you are unable or unwilling to count those jobs doesn't matter to reality.
Quote:
I could also say that I cast a "spell" on the economy and saved 100 million jobs that would have been otherwise lost. It is difficult to disprove such a contention, yet it is equally as ridiculous as noting the "success' of a policy which has resulted in net loss of jobs. It is analagous to a military commander saying that a defeat would have been much worse in another's hands. A defeat is a defeat.
Another pile.
Quote:
By the same token, can we say that the subprime mortage disaster helped the economy, as there were some jobs created during that time, yet there was a massive net loss of jobs.
I can see your logic now
Obama stimulus = subprime mortgage meltdown
Were you ever introduced to negative numbers in grade school?
Let me try another equation, since the analogy didn't stick.
-7 million (negative seven million) + 640,000 = -6,360,000
Even with the stimulus we're still down.
-7 million + 0 (no stimulus) = -7,000,000
As you should be able to tell, we're down less.
C'mon people, this is basic math.
Quote:
So, would you suggest yet another stimulus or two? As you think the first one was so successful, two or three more and we should be home free!
The economist I read most suggested it was too small. But even that economist didn't expect the recession to take so many free market jobs.
If you like the free market, there is nothing wrong with the unemployment rate, it's simply the way things are right now.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleLove08
So, Repubs, should Obama and Congress try to do something to lower the unemployment rate or should we just let the "free market" take care of things?
Let the market take care of things.
You understand that the reason unemployement is going up is because of the "free market"? Investors purchase stock at a given price based on their perception of future earnings and growth. Companies hire employees in a similar manner. Companies are scared to hire right now - it costs a lot to hire and train an employee. Management is worried about the impact of Obama's plans, including healthcare, tax increases, and Cap and Trade.
the ignorance astounds me. 8 years of bush letting corps do as they please and now it all obamas fault. Its big business that is ruining the country, wake up.
"if ignorance is bliss why aren't more people happy"
Bush didn't let corporations do what they wanted.
Could you give some examples?
And big business is ruining the country why exactly? Wouldn't it be in big business' interest to have a healthy ecoomy in the United States????????
The ignorance astounds me.
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