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I'm against focusing too much attention on getting those who show no inkling of caring about anything in school to pass a standardized test while ignoring the enriching of minds that are more eager to learn...
STANDARDS are fine, but basing a school's or a teacher's life on whether students who are disruptive, don't do homework and don't listen or make any effort meets those standards is rediculously unfair and it takes away from the LEGITIMATE students who are concerned about their education.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,763,471 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickofnyc
The Obama administration will seek sweeping reforms to George W. Bush's "No Child Left Behind" Act, abandoning some metrics that teachers unions, principals and other officials have complained about since the law went into effect, the New York Times reports. Obama will seek broad changes in the ways schools are judged to be succeeding, and will eliminate the law's 2014 deadline for bringing every American student to academic proficiency.
I support NCLB. It was about the only thing Bush did that I did support. I must admit that it did provide a benefit for me in that I was able to move my daughter from Campbell High to McEachern High where she enjoyed better academic and non academic opportunities. I am also for vouchers for students that are in dangerous or non performing schools so long as the vouchers are not used for religious instruction.
a good student will excel, he doesnt need a 0ne on one...
you would rather just leave the 'no-performers' behind??????
when the teacher is able to bring the LOWER student up, she is helping the class as a WHOLE
its not about 'just getting by', its about TEACHING, even the difficult to teach.......so I guess you would rather IGNORE the lower people, just so you can excel????? how nice of you
our education system is horrible, and needs lots of work....just look at the drop out rates: if you look at dropout rates (or graduation rates) you get a very interesting look
graduation rates by state
1. Wisc 87.5
2. Neb 87.0
3. Iowa 86.9
4. Minn 86.2
5. New Jersey 84.8
6. S. Dakota 84.5
7. Penn 83.5
8. Vermont 82.3
9. N Dakota 82.1
10. Mont 81.9
.
.
.
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New york 67.4
.
.
.
bottom 5:
45. Florida 63.6
46. Miss 63.5
47. Georgia 62.4
48 S. Carolina 61.0
49. Lousianna 59.5
50. nevada 55.8
makes you wonder, just over 50% of Nevada's high school students graduate
You seem logical, so I'd ask you to bridge the logic gap here.....
If a teacher is primarily focused on "Bringing the lower student up", then who is not doing any further learning? What happens to the child in class who already KNOWS how to do long division and is sitting there doing the same exercises over and over while the teacher spends extra time with those who don't get it???
And that's just the example from your SIMPLE world where you are apparently assuming that these kids have any INTEREST in learning it. The reality of the situation is that many of the lower kids don't do their work, are verbally abusive, and their parents don't do anything but blame the school and the teacher. I'd LOVE to hear how you suggest a school or a teacher take care of this... I'm going to guess that your response might show a lack of understanding of what schools are allowed to do and what they're NOT allowed to do...
You seem logical, so I'd ask you to bridge the logic gap here.....
If a teacher is primarily focused on "Bringing the lower student up", then who is not doing any further learning? What happens to the child in class who already KNOWS how to do long division and is sitting there doing the same exercises over and over while the teacher spends extra time with those who don't get it???
And that's just the example from your SIMPLE world where you are apparently assuming that these kids have any INTEREST in learning it. The reality of the situation is that many of the lower kids don't do their work, are verbally abusive, and their parents don't do anything but blame the school and the teacher. I'd LOVE to hear how you suggest a school or a teacher take care of this... I'm going to guess that your response might show a lack of understanding of what schools are allowed to do and what they're NOT allowed to do...
Quote:
What happens to the child in class who already KNOWS how to do long division and is sitting there doing the same exercises over and over while the teacher spends extra time with those who don't get it???
and how was it really any different before NCLB, when individual schools had Curriculums....I was one of those bored students, I found things to do, read, and learn on my own, while the teachers did their jobs and taught other students, also as an advanced student, I helped the teacher, and in doing so my peers. The main idae here is to get kids to learn, to teach, to excel....
I would rather set some standards and REQUIRE that everyone reach that standard, than to just say 'its ok you are dumb, here is a diploma anyhow'
You seem logical, so I'd ask you to bridge the logic gap here.....
If a teacher is primarily focused on "Bringing the lower student up", then who is not doing any further learning? What happens to the child in class who already KNOWS how to do long division and is sitting there doing the same exercises over and over while the teacher spends extra time with those who don't get it???
And that's just the example from your SIMPLE world where you are apparently assuming that these kids have any INTEREST in learning it. The reality of the situation is that many of the lower kids don't do their work, are verbally abusive, and their parents don't do anything but blame the school and the teacher. I'd LOVE to hear how you suggest a school or a teacher take care of this... I'm going to guess that your response might show a lack of understanding of what schools are allowed to do and what they're NOT allowed to do...
Quote:
The reality of the situation is that many of the lower kids don't do their work, are verbally abusive, and their parents don't do anything but blame the school and the teacher. I'd LOVE to hear how you suggest a school or a teacher take care of this...
that is simple......if they dont/wont do their work....RETAIN, transfer,
if they are abusive......again ratain, transfer, SUSPEND, EXPELL
you keep talking about the studend that WONT....I an talking about the students that NEED HELP, and can do
the "won't do's" will drop out anyhow.....but why should we PROMOTE them, if they are not learning.......all you get with that is a guy with a diploma who can't read or do simple math.....
that is simple......if they dont/wont do their work....RETAIN, transfer,
if they are abusive......again ratain, transfer, SUSPEND, EXPELL
you keep talking about the studend that WONT....I an talking about the students that NEED HELP, and can do
the "won't do's" will drop out anyhow.....but why should we PROMOTE them, if they are not learning.......all you get with that is a guy with a diploma who can't read or do simple math.....
What you don't understand is that schools are forced to retain the "Won't do's" and that they are FAR more plentiful than you think... Beyond that, the entire purpose of NCLB is to actually FOCUS on these kids. With many it's a waste of time, but the school is mandated to do it!!! Expulsion isn't some simple process. A kid has to pretty much be violent, or a drug-dealer to be expelled. Simply not doing work and being constantly disruptive will not warrant expulsion, and so help me GOD if you try!!! Then you get to meet the parent who believes that the child is an angel and it MUST be the teachers' faults...
Remember, their test scores COUNT... And people want to judge the teachers based on these kids without taking these factors into consideration. It's crazy!!!
and how was it really any different before NCLB, when individual schools had Curriculums....I was one of those bored students, I found things to do, read, and learn on my own, while the teachers did their jobs and taught other students, also as an advanced student, I helped the teacher, and in doing so my peers. The main idae here is to get kids to learn, to teach, to excel....
I would rather set some standards and REQUIRE that everyone reach that standard, than to just say 'its ok you are dumb, here is a diploma anyhow'
You want kids to pass the test? You want kids to be held to that simple standard and have it be how all are judged?
I give you "Teaching to the test"!!! Oh it's SO much fun!!! The intelligent kids really get a lot out of it.
I don't know ONE teacher that likes it. So is it your contention that our schools are just jam-packed with bad teachers?
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,763,471 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW
That law has damaged education in this country and should be completely repealed.
It is a good law and should be kept pretty much as it is. If some tinkering needs to be done then do it but most of it should be left as it is. Schools need to be held to account for the products they put out- just as any business would. If they are producing inferior products, then they need to go out of business. The country cannot afford failure.
You seem logical, so I'd ask you to bridge the logic gap here.....
If a teacher is primarily focused on "Bringing the lower student up", then who is not doing any further learning? What happens to the child in class who already KNOWS how to do long division and is sitting there doing the same exercises over and over while the teacher spends extra time with those who don't get it???
That begs the question... why are those two students even in the same class? They clearly have very different educational needs.
Schools are interpreting the requirements of NCLB incorrectly. They don't need to pull the entire school down to make sure struggling students pass the NCLB tests if the schools practiced flexible ability/skill level grouping and structured the curriculum to match the readiness/skill level of each group so that EVERY student makes forward progress. Note how there is nothing in NCLB that requires the ability to barely pass a basic-level test be set as the ceiling, or the end goal. To the contrary, it should be considered the floor, the barely acceptable minimum level.
NCLB is a disaster only because schools are teaching everyone at the lowest level. They don't have to, or even need to. They do so in a misguided attempt at forcing artificial egalitarianism. Social justice is a driving force behind that. And referring back to The Other Crisis article, you can't ignore the nearly 50 years in which the vast majority of several generations of students have been intentionally dumbed down to realize the social-engineering goal of forced egalitarianism - or, in other words, forced equal outcomes. Think about it - in order to be able to achieve equal outcomes, the target outcome level would have to be below average, the level at which most students would be able to achieve.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,763,471 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
Its funny how accountability tends to scare nonperformers. Performers don't really mind a challenge. I know where I work they started a new program. All paygrades must demonstrate skills. In other words if you are being paid as a Tech 4 that means you have leadership skills, mechanical skills and process skills. A set of standards are used to compare your actual performance against what you should be doing. If you do not meet you have 1 year to re-establish your qualifications. At the end of the year if you fail to meet you will be demoted to the paygrade that you do meet.
Oddly enough no performer really cared. It was the slackers who went into full blown panic. Even more odd the performers don't seem to be at all willing to help the slackers recover. LOL Could it be from years of abuse of the system and riding on the backs of others?
Teachers once they attain tenure are virtually bullet proof. Do away with tenure and do away with protecting the jobs of non-performers and we will see gains.
That is true. Teachers, like everybody else, should be held accountable for the work they do but at the same time you have to give the teacher the authority to use the methods and curriculum the teacher wishes to use and to remove disruptive students from his/her classroom. One thing I would like to see is to allow the teacher to select the textbook the students will use in class. The school should not use a "one book fits all" approach. If the teacher reviews text books and thinks a book is more fitting to that teachers methods, the teacher should be allowed to select that book for use in the classroom.
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