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Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,766,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhett_Butler
You want kids to pass the test? You want kids to be held to that simple standard and have it be how all are judged?
I give you "Teaching to the test"!!! Oh it's SO much fun!!! The intelligent kids really get a lot out of it.
I don't know ONE teacher that likes it. So is it your contention that our schools are just jam-packed with bad teachers?
The test is what teachers should teach to. The test measures what the student has learned. If they test has math problems then the teacher should teach math. If the teacher teaches math, she is "teaching to the test" which is what the teacher should be doing.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,766,887 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by odinloki1
Agreed that incompetent teachers should be fired. To say thats the only problem shows a lack of understanding of the complexity of 30 kids to 1 teacher.
Videotape classrooms. Good teachers should have nothing to fear. If 1 kid continues to waste classroom time, the parents pay more money.
If parents can't be home because they have to work all the time, then the issue becomes more complex.
I know from experience that unmotivated latchkey kids, drag classrooms down and waste teacher time and slow down the classroom learning. Teachers need to be doing their job, but so do the parents.
You can have the best teacher in the world, but give them 5 kids in their class that don't do any homework and can't pay attention and need a 1 on 1 babysitter, and you've just slowed down the whole class, a lot.
Think about the whole problem instead of using it for your partisan platform. Again I agree that incompetent teachers need to be fired, but thats not the whole problem.
I agree. Not only should the classroom be video taped but it should be live on the internet where anybody- especially a parent- can "peek" in at anytime to watch what is going on in the class.
that is simple......if they dont/wont do their work....RETAIN, transfer,
if they are abusive......again ratain, transfer, SUSPEND, EXPELL
you keep talking about the studend that WONT....I an talking about the students that NEED HELP, and can do
the "won't do's" will drop out anyhow.....but why should we PROMOTE them, if they are not learning.......all you get with that is a guy with a diploma who can't read or do simple math.....
When was the last time you taught school?? Or even spoke with a teacher? Public schools no longer have the freedom to do any of the things you recommend (retain, transfer, suspend, expel) on a broad scale. Schools are mandated to do everything possible to keep the "won't do's" from dropping out - it's called Dropout Prevention and requires that school adminstrators practically pay kids to stay in school.
>Most school sytems assign students to schools based on their home address and a transfer for a disruptive student is not an option. Besides, transferring doesn't fix a problem student, it just moves him/her to a different location.
>Very few students are ever given outdoor suspension - most schools have an indoor suspensio program, which removes a disruptive student from the classroom for only a few days and provides no correction for that student.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,766,887 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyousay
Let me preface this by saying that I do NOT have all of the answers to solve our national education problems. However, to all of those hating on the NCLB policy, how do you then propose we hold teachers accountable for the learning (or lack thereof) that the children we entrust them with achieve (or don't achieve)?
I understand that many teachers now teach students specifically to be able to pass the tests and make adequate yearly progress. Is that such a bad thing as opposed to not monitoring their curriculum at all? We need to ensure some educational standards.
I'm really surprised that so many on the left are vehemently opposed to NCLB. All it basically did was nationalize outcome standards for our kids' education. I think the majority of those who oppose it do so because of partisan beliefs. JMO.
So lefties, what do you propose? You cannot simply state that NCLB should be repealed without addressing those issues I pointed out above.
I agree. We need to do better in supporting the teacher in the classroom but we need to demand standards in education. One thing I would like to see is more Teacher Assistants in classrooms in higher risk schools that could work with individual students to make sure they keep up with the teacher in the classroom. Back when I was in school we had them and they were good at helping the "slower" students keep up so the teacher did not have to take away class time to work with individual students as much. I am willing to spend the money to help the teacher but I expect the teacher to perform his or her job.
That begs the question... why are those two students even in the same class? They clearly have very different educational needs.
Schools are interpreting the requirements of NCLB incorrectly. They don't need to pull the entire school down to make sure struggling students pass the NCLB tests if the schools practiced flexible ability/skill level grouping and structured the curriculum to match the readiness/skill level of each group so that EVERY student makes forward progress. Note how there is nothing in NCLB that requires the ability to barely pass a basic-level test be set as the ceiling, or the end goal. To the contrary, it should be considered the floor, the barely acceptable minimum level.
NCLB is a disaster only because schools are teaching everyone at the lowest level. They don't have to, or even need to. They do so in a misguided attempt at forcing artificial egalitarianism. Social justice is a driving force behind that. And referring back to The Other Crisis article, you can't ignore the nearly 50 years in which the vast majority of several generations of students have been intentionally dumbed down to realize the social-engineering goal of forced egalitarianism - or, in other words, forced equal outcomes. Think about it - in order to be able to achieve equal outcomes, the target outcome level would have to be below average, the level at which most students would be able to achieve.
But are they teaching at the lowest level and "to the test" because the teachers suck?
That is really what's at issue here IMO... I have worked in some pretty crappy school districts and can tell you that they aren't crappy through any fault of the effort of the teachers... The teachers seem to be in "salvage the kids you can salvage" mode most of the time.
Sure, there are "honors" kids and "standard" kids. In the district my wife works in, the "honors" kids sound like they are about at the level that was the standard kid 20 years ago... She likes teaching honors because they actually do their homework!!! And yes, she might go a BIT more in depth, simply because she has the time to, but for the most part the standards are so rigid that she has to move on in the curriculum. There is no choice. The test is king.
Standard kids are some border-line kids mixed with some that are virtually hopeless... The BIG problems come when the hopeless affect those that might otherwise get it...
Overall if she gets a pass rate for her standard kids in the low 80% range she's done a good job... NCLB, however, tightens the standards every year so it won't be long before this fails to meet AYP... Are the kids coming up better? No. Do you think they would be if NCLB was doing what it was supposed to? Yes.
Somethin' ain't right....
Bottom line to me and what I would like to see is standardized reading and math tests. THAT'S IT. Get the kids knowing how to read, how to add, subtract, multiply and divide. Anything on top of that is gravy as far as I'm concerned. The science, social studies and technology classes can and honestly SHOULD go back to the way it was... The teacher structuring lessons around a looser curriculum and being held accountable at the local school level only...
What we have done with NCLB (that has been debated) is taken some of the BEST teachers and marginalized them and painted them into a corner on what they can teach. This does little to enrich kids and interest them. Think to your favorite teacher in high school or middle school. Chances are you LOVED that teacher because they had a passion for a particular aspect of their subject and did what is known as "hobby teach"
(If you are unclear as to what that is, it's basically teachers putting a heavier class focus on the areas of the subject that they like the most.. If a history teacher loves Civil War history and doesn't like the Industrial Age that much, they fill their class more with Civil War lessons and less with Industrial Age material, while still covering the basics)...
While many discount this as a waste of time, I think it is and was EXTREMELY helpful, interesting and enriching... This has basically been eliminated by NCLB..... NCLB needs to be the most BASIC of skills IMO and the rest should be using those skills to enrich the child.
Kids shouldn't be failed because they don't know who Andrew Carnegie is. They shouldn't be failed because they forgot what a metamorphic rock is... UNLESS it is part of the SCHOOL curriculum and the TEACHER has failed them because they didn't know the curriculum.
NCLB overstepped the bounds of the federal government in this. Reading, Writing, Arithmatic. Schools must be accountable for teaching these skills and kids MUST learn them. Beyond that? I think the yoke needs to be taken off of our schools. Our educational system flourished 25-30 years ago. Not sure what has happened since, but NCLB hasn't helped except to identify the problem. Now that it's identified, we need to come up with an actual solution independent from NCLB...
It is a good law and should be kept pretty much as it is. If some tinkering needs to be done then do it but most of it should be left as it is. Schools need to be held to account for the products they put out- just as any business would. If they are producing inferior products, then they need to go out of business. The country cannot afford failure.
Businesses are allowed to purchase the raw material quality of their choice. If a business wants superior output, they select superior input. Every business owner knows that you cannot purchase inferior materials and expect to get superior results.
Not so with education. Schools/teachers have no say in the raw material that enters their classrooms. You cannot quantify the business of educating a child in the same way that you would a business that produces widgets.
When public schools are allowed to select which students they will allow into their classrooms THEN you can apply your business model standards. Until then, your accountability model is not applicable.
The test is what teachers should teach to. The test measures what the student has learned. If they test has math problems then the teacher should teach math. If the teacher teaches math, she is "teaching to the test" which is what the teacher should be doing.
Teaching to the test promotes cramming and basic, surface learning.
Deeper learning and long-term understanding are achieved through other methods...
So great! Julie passed her Biology Standard Test!!! She remembered the parts of the cell after the rapid cram session that she just went through the day before the test (and yes, most schools do this before the tests)... Next week? Great chance she'll have no clue what the parts of a cell are.....
We are cramming our kids full of information and having them regurgitate it right now. This isn't "learning".
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,766,887 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray1945
When was the last time you taught school?? Or even spoke with a teacher? Public schools no longer have the freedom to do any of the things you recommend (retain, transfer, suspend, expel) on a broad scale. Schools are mandated to do everything possible to keep the "won't do's" from dropping out - it's called Dropout Prevention and requires that school adminstrators practically pay kids to stay in school.
>Most school sytems assign students to schools based on their home address and a transfer for a disruptive student is not an option. Besides, transferring doesn't fix a problem student, it just moves him/her to a different location.
>Very few students are ever given outdoor suspension - most schools have an indoor suspensio program, which removes a disruptive student from the classroom for only a few days and provides no correction for that student.
>Expulsion is reserved for criminal activity.
I support a form of pay for students. This might be a good idea. You pay the student some money for coming to school, staying out of trouble and maintaining a GPA- maybe like $20 a week for elementary and $50 a week for high school if the student has no tardy, no unexcused absences, at least C grade in every class and no disciplinary actions. Payday would be every Friday and would be in the form of a prepaid Visa card that the student could use for anything. The students could also earn semester and annual bonuses just like the CEOs get. Perfect attendance for the semester gets a $100 bonus. No discipline for the semester gets $100 bonus. Honour Roll gets $200 bonus and Headmaster's (Principal's) List gets $500 bonus. Considering what we pay FOR the student, it is a small amount to pay TO the student to give him an incentive to perform.
The test is what teachers should teach to. The test measures what the student has learned. . . .
And this, in my experience, is what teachers find challenging. They are being evaluated precisely on how well they teach (as defined as how well kids do on an exam.) Horrors.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,766,887 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhett_Butler
Teaching to the test promotes cramming and basic, surface learning.
Deeper learning and long-term understanding are achieved through other methods...
So great! Julie passed her Biology Standard Test!!! She remembered the parts of the cell after the rapid cram session that she just went through the day before the test (and yes, most schools do this before the tests)... Next week? Great chance she'll have no clue what the parts of a cell are.....
We are cramming our kids full of information and having them regurgitate it right now. This isn't "learning".
You don't need to know what the parts of the cell are but you should know what a cell is and that it is the basic building block of all life forms. If you need to know the parts, you should know where and how to find that information. The test should not have a question like that. It should have a question like:
What Is The Most Basic Building Block of All Life Forms?
A. The Proton
B. The Molecule
C. The Electron
D. The Cell
E. None Of The Above
The fact is that ANY high school student should be able to answer that question if the teacher has done his or her job.
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And yes, she might go a BIT more in depth, simply because she has the time to, but for the most part the standards are so rigid that she has to move on in the curriculum. There is no choice. The test is king.
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