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Because socialism is merely a stepping stone towards Communism, the ultimate goal of all liberals.
Liberalism stands in absolute contrast to Communism. You can find that information in any dictionary or encyclopedia. I leave the exercise of learning to you.
I would also like to add that it was Democratic Socialist Europe that helped topple the Berlin Wall and bring former Soviet satellite nations into the European fold, granting new freedoms never known under communism but now granted under democratic socialism.
Your understanding of these issues appears to be extinct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave
The union workers there [Italy] have almost absolute power. Every spring the public transportation union picks a day to go on strike. Their day of strike that shuts down the entire country is nothing more than an excuse for them to go on vacation.
I've heard some nightmare stories about union issues in a number of Euro nations, especially the Latin ones. France has horrible problems with strikes. Every nation has problems.
I started the thread not with the intention of saying that everything about Europe is better than the USA. The purpose of the thread is to challenge the currently fashionable hatred of everything that is perceived to be even remotely European or liberal in nature.
Immediately you jumped to the conclusion that we liberals want communism. This is an exemplary statement that sheds light on the darkness of the modern American right wing movement, a movement without reason or objectives other than a vague nostalgic notion of returning America to an imagined past that never really existed, unless your goal is to undo the civil rights movement and return women to silent submissive roles as housewives. Is it communistic to wish for all human beings to be treated as equals, with rights to vote and to have a basic standard of living which includes protection from being destitute due to an illness or injury that is no fault of their own? I think not.
OK..but our tanks are bigger than theirs!
Seriously...we are a democracy. We are capitalist. We are not socialist. Although...when you really think about it, we actually are a balance of the 2.
Yeah... when you think about it, European nations are ALL democracies and they're ALL partially Capitalist in nature. Hence the modifier I used before the word "Socialism" --- "European." The EU nations have achieved, in some cases to much greater effect than in others, a functional blending of systems that seems to have achieved better results on many fronts than what we've achieved in recent decades in America.
However, the following argument is one for which I have a lot of respect:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jufrbo
The US is too big for those styles of government to work. It would have to be on a state level. Almost every European nation is smaller in population than California. They are also all very homogenous. Denmark and the US, for example, can't really be compared in any real way. There's ten million people there. We have metro areas here with more people than that.
I cannot respond intelligently to this good point. It may be true that what is accomplished in smaller, relatively homogeneous nations cannot be replicated in a vast polyglot nation such as the United States. The concept of giving states more rights so that some may try variations on the Euro model is an interesting one, but could it work while maintaining the unity of the nation? That's a pretty big question to which I'm not qualified to reply. Any takers?
Hmm, guess I must have imagined all those Soviet Union flag draped political offices in may parts of Italy. Guess I must have imagined the Che' flag hanging over the Obama campaign headquarters. Guess I must have imagined the Communist party sign up booths at the anti-war rallies held (organized by these communist groups) in northern California. Guess I must have imagined liberal icon Jane Fonda fully supporting Communist North Vietnamese troops while calling returning American soldiers "liars" for reporting the torture they endured at the hands of those troops Fonda supported. YOU might want to read the Communist Manifesto to see how many of the goals listed are fully supported and enacted by the Democratic Party before you start mouthing off about "exercise of learning".
Quote:
Originally Posted by tongpa-nyi
Liberalism stands in absolute contrast to Communism. You can find that information in any dictionary or encyclopedia. I leave the exercise of learning to you.
I would also like to add that it was Democratic Socialist Europe that helped topple the Berlin Wall and bring former Soviet satellite nations into the European fold, granting new freedoms never known under communism but now granted under democratic socialism.
Your understanding of these issues appears to be extinct.I've heard some nightmare stories about union issues in a number of Euro nations, especially the Latin ones. France has horrible problems with strikes. Every nation has problems.
I started the thread not with the intention of saying that everything about Europe is better than the USA. The purpose of the thread is to challenge the currently fashionable hatred of everything that is perceived to be even remotely European or liberal in nature.
Immediately you jumped to the conclusion that we liberals want communism. This is an exemplary statement that sheds light on the darkness of the modern American right wing movement, a movement without reason or objectives other than a vague nostalgic notion of returning America to an imagined past that never really existed, unless your goal is to undo the civil rights movement and return women to silent submissive roles as housewives. Is it communistic to wish for all human beings to be treated as equals, with rights to vote and to have a basic standard of living which includes protection from being destitute due to an illness or injury that is no fault of their own? I think not.
Hmm, guess I must have imagined all those Soviet Union flag draped political offices in may parts of Italy. Guess I must have imagined the Che' flag hanging over the Obama campaign headquarters. Guess I must have imagined the Communist party sign up booths at the anti-war rallies held (organized by these communist groups) in northern California.
And so on. No, of course you didn't imagine those. The Communist parties of every nation are among the most vocal and small of all political movements. They're ineffectual halfwits. Pay them no mind. They were around during the 1960s and 70s and they've never gone away. Their numbers don't grow. Their power is nil.
As for your quip about the Communist Manifesto and the Democratic Party platform, I would imagine that many of the ultimate objectives expressed are similar. The methods, however, are quite different. And, dear reader, please keep in mind the fact that the Communist Manifesto has never been put into practice. It's only been used as a pretext for ruthless tyrants who claim to represent the best interests of "The People." If this is what you fear, then I understand. But I think your fears are out of proportion with reality.
The American Democratic Party is scarcely distinguishable from the GOP. Once in power, both parties do the bidding of the corporations who own them. Neither party can do anything without the approval of their overlords, and those overlords are largely the same for both parties.
tongpa-nyi, initially I thought that you were just trying to incite by spouting rhetoric, but after reading through several of your posts, I believe you bring up some good points.
Germany has about 82 million people in an area roughly the size of MN and WI. UK has 62 million and it's considerably smaller than Germany. France also has 62 million. California, the US' most populous state, has 37 million. These are not small population countries. Many of them have more people than US states. The US has 307 million in total. We went to the moon, we helped defeat the Axis, pioneered all sorts of technologies and medicine, and yet we can't do what other Western, industrialized nations can do?
This whole tack -- that the US is special case really smells like a dismissal tactic more than anything else. Especially when people are cherry-picking small population European nations for their comparisons.
What do most European nations do better than we do in America?
* Provide health care to many more people at a level of quality equal to what average (not wealthy) Americans receive for half the cost that we pay
* Educate their youth to the level of our college sophomores, two years earlier than we do
* Use far less energy and other resources per capita than we do
* Dispose of far less garbage per capita than we do
* Achieve greater socioeconomic equality without depriving citizens of their right to choose an occupation and receive just rewards for their efforts
* Spend more on basic scientific research that will lead them into the future of the global economy rather than blowing it all on a massive military
* Maintain neutrality with respect to the internal affairs of sovereign nations while the USA consistently meddles, conducts covert operations and invades them
Those are just off the top of my head.
For those of you knee-jerk "love it or leave it" people who are about to write "Why don't you move to Europe", please send me the funds to do so. French lessons would be a plus. Thanks in advance!
Because not every country can be socialist. Thats why.
Somebody has to do the hard work and make s**t happen. We are the most powerful, most innovative, most productive, and most successful economy in the world. We work long hours, have less vacation time and have large responsibilities worldwide.
What do we get for all of this hard work? The quality of life (for those who earn it) and the satisfaction of knowing we are helping out countries around the world who need it. We have the POWER and the MONEY to be able to do this. Our military is fighting tyranny and building stability in oppressed countries all over the world. We are donating the most money of any country to nations that need it most. We are the nation that most other nations look up to. We are the sandbox of creativity and innovation. You can't find what we have in this country anywhere else!
Is socialism nice for those countries that choose to adopt it? Im sure it is. Of course getting free money and services that you didnt earn is nice. I'm sure it will make a much larger percentage of the population happier. However, which is more satisfying in the end? Doing the least amount of work possible for your own happiness, or working hard in order to make the best of yourself and to benefit those in need all around the world.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,772,368 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by tongpa-nyi
What do most European nations do better than we do in America?
* Provide health care to many more people at a level of quality equal to what average (not wealthy) Americans receive for half the cost that we pay
* Educate their youth to the level of our college sophomores, two years earlier than we do
* Use far less energy and other resources per capita than we do
* Dispose of far less garbage per capita than we do
* Achieve greater socioeconomic equality without depriving citizens of their right to choose an occupation and receive just rewards for their efforts
* Spend more on basic scientific research that will lead them into the future of the global economy rather than blowing it all on a massive military
* Maintain neutrality with respect to the internal affairs of sovereign nations while the USA consistently meddles, conducts covert operations and invades them
Those are just off the top of my head.
For those of you knee-jerk "love it or leave it" people who are about to write "Why don't you move to Europe", please send me the funds to do so. French lessons would be a plus. Thanks in advance!
The right has always had a bad taste for Europe. I really do not know why but they think that whatever Europe does, we should do the opposite. That is why they forced President Ford to kill the transition to the Metric system- even though it is a far better and understandable system of weights and measurements. That does not mean Europe is perfect. They do some things I certainly would not want to see over here. But they do a lot of things right too that we would be wise to take up.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,772,368 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanst530
Because not every country can be socialist. Thats why.
Somebody has to do the hard work and make s**t happen. We are the most powerful, most innovative, most productive, and most successful economy in the world. We work long hours, have less vacation time and have large responsibilities worldwide.
What do we get for all of this hard work? The quality of life (for those who earn it) and the satisfaction of knowing we are helping out countries around the world who need it. We have the POWER and the MONEY to be able to do this. Our military is fighting tyranny and building stability in oppressed countries all over the world. We are donating the most money of any country to nations that need it most. We are the nation that most other nations look up to. We are the sandbox of creativity and innovation. You can't find what we have in this country anywhere else!
Is socialism nice for those countries that choose to adopt it? Im sure it is. Of course getting free money and services that you didnt earn is nice. I'm sure it will make a much larger percentage of the population happier. However, which is more satisfying in the end? Doing the least amount of work possible for your own happiness, or working hard in order to make the best of yourself and to benefit those in need all around the world.
The grass is always greener...
Maybe we want to relax now. Let China do that job for awhile. We took it from England and had it for a long time. Give somebody else a chance.
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