Linfield College vrs. George Fox University (Portland, Salem: top schools, high income, living)

[texasdiver]

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

I am not surprised at PNW U's and low endowments and lack of prestige / research facilities.

This portion of USA was born on independence and stays that way to a large extent. (including U's)

There is a lot of good going on there and very interesting projects ( I enjoy going to Walla Walla, Moscow, and Spokane to attend college events and presentations of local research.

I would expect higher education USA to significantly diminish, as we (USA) are only at the forefront because we had... a reputation... and have immigrant / foreign students who are excellent at the discipline and incentive required for research programs and reporting. The 'world is opening up to non-USA edu, and that is a very good thing (for humanity / future of the world). USA is a 'has-been' in EDU and falling quickly behind.

My impression is that foreign students flocked to the US at least in part because they wanted to eventually work in the US. If say Brazil became the new world hot spot for tech, research, finance, and everything else that the US has been for the past several decades then I would expect Brazilian universities to shoot to the top in popularity with foreign students.

The EU is a little bit different because of the free movement of capital and labor between EU countries. So graduates of EU universities in one country can freely move to jobs in any other EU country as freely as if they were different US states. The rest of the world doesn't really work like that, at least not yet.

[redguard57]

In general I think Linfield offers better experience.

• Its academics are somewhat stronger. It is ranked higher on USNWR. Although there are notable exceptions where George Fox as an edge as others have said.
  
• Its campus is nicer by a significant margin in my view.
  
• I'd much rather live in McMinnville over Newburg. In addition, McMinnville has a more vibrant community of young people. The stronger tourism industry there means he'll have an easier time getting an off-campus job if he wants one.
  
• Linfield offers more of a traditional experience with things like sports, etc... The OP indicated he will be playing baseball.
  
• George Fox I think charges a little lower tuition.

Although I will say, if I were 18 or if I had an 18 year old kid right now, my advice would be to defer admission until the 2021-22 school year when it's more likely covid19 will be behind us. In the meantime take community college online. No way in hell would I pay full tuition at a private university for "remote" classes. Only if they give me a scholarship.

[redguard57]

Originally Posted by Wintermomma

Incredible how much some of them have.

While it definitely sounds like a lot... keep in mind that a major research university like Notre Dame or Boston College probably has an operating budget in the $1-2 Billion range. A small elite liberal arts college like Smith has an operating budget in the $250-350M range. Even the largest endowments would keep them going for <5 years if they drew from them to pay their bills, and they would lose whatever income they make off that money to support students. A smaller endowment like what Reed College has would keep them going 1-2 years at most. Drawing from the endowment is only done in absolute emergencies.

[texasdiver]

Originally Posted by redguard57

While it definitely sounds like a lot... keep in mind that a major research university like Notre Dame or Boston College probably has an operating budget in the $1-2 Billion range. A small elite liberal arts college like Smith has an operating budget in the $250-350M range. Even the largest endowments would keep them going for <5 years if they drew from them to pay their bills, and they would lose whatever income they make off that money to support students. A smaller endowment like what Reed College has would keep them going 1-2 years at most. Drawing from the endowment is only done in absolute emergencies.

Well, I think big research universities actually make money on research grants. UW, for example, brings in over $1.5 billion in research grant funding every year, a large portion of which is siphoned off by the institution for operating costs, and which supports professor and grad student salaries.

I think typically what most institutions do is devote a certain percent of their endowment each year towards their budget for operating costs, scholarships, or whatever. Like say 4% or 5% or some number that is well below their long-term investment returns. That way their endowment can continue to grow to keep pace with inflation while supporting the school's mission.

It is kind of how a retiree is recommended to withdraw no more than 4% of their retirement nest egg in any one year to make sure they don't run out of money. Universities operate under similar rules for safe withdrawal rates except they are obviously operating on longer time horizons.

So if we assume a 4% withdrawal rate, a school like Reed with a $600 million endowment can probably safely withdraw $24 million per year in support of their mission while a school like Linfield with a $100 million endowment can safely withdraw $4 million per year.

That's why they are always badgering us alums for money. They are trying to grow their endowments in order to grow their permanent income streams.

Of course endowments aren't the only measure of financial stability. One school might have all of its buildings long paid for and have zero debt to service. Another school might have borrowed hundreds of millions of dollars for expansion and new facilities and has millions of dollars of debt to service on top of all of its normal annual operating expenses. But that sort of thing is much harder to research. You have to read deep into their annual financial statements and know how to make sense of them. As opposed to just looking up the endowment size on Wikipedia to get a simple snapshot for comparison which is what I did.

[Nell Plotts]

This next year will stress the financials of higher education. Some/many parents will be reluctant to pay tuition for on-line classes, Dorms will sit empty. Many universities have spent $$$ on student activity facilities.

[texasdiver]

Originally Posted by Nell Plotts

This next year will stress the financials of higher education. Some/many parents will be reluctant to pay tuition for on-line classes, Dorms will sit empty. Many universities have spent $$$ on student activity facilities.

That's the real conundrum. Universities have invested in billions of dollars with of student amenities from dorms to cafeterias to fitness and leisure facilities. These were financed with the assumption that they would have thousands and thousands of students on campus paying exorbitant prices for room, board, and leisure activities through fees. Take away the students and they still owe billions of dollars on those facilities without income streams they were counting on to service the debt.

I did a UO campus tour with my daughter in late Feb the week before the pandemic closed down all the campus tours. I was rather shocked and surprised at growth in student amenities. The academic buildings were honestly little changed from what I remembered from taking classes there in the 1980s. The library is still the same library, although with screens instead of card catalogs. But the student cafeterias and dorms and fitness centers were like another universe compared to UO circa 1982.

If the campuses were just a collection of classrooms, labs, and bare-bones dorms and cafeterias like they used to be they would be in much better shape. But then they'd be losing the college student arms race to the fancier schools and we'd still have 2-10 football teams and be playing in the Big Sky conference instead of the Pac12.

It is really no different from any other service-oriented business that depends on in-person customers. Interrupt the income stream and the whole enterprise soon collapses.

I don't know what's going to happen to higher education. My guess is that next fall is going to be another financial disaster with schools muddling along in some combination of on-campus and online education that isn't going to satisfy anyone. Students will get jerked around, being told to show up in person, then get told to quarantine again and back and forth. But hopefully Jan 2021 might bring some return to normalcy if we have a vaccine by then. I don't see how we have fall sports like football with the trendline we are one.

[leastprime]

Willamette, GFox, Linfield need to combine else all three will perish.

[texasdiver]

Originally Posted by leastprime

Willamette, GFox, Linfield need to combine else all three will perish.

They are all doing the opposite. They are all trying to expand into each other's territories. Pacific University also, which should be included in the discussion. Each school is opening up branch campuses and such in the Portland metro and elsewhere.

Linfield (which BTW changed its name to Linfield University this very week) has its nursing school in Portland and has adult education branches in 8 other communities.

George Fox has branch campus locations in Portland, Salem and Redmond as well as its home in Newberg.

Pacific University now has branch locations in Hillsboro, Eugene, and Woodburn as well as it home in Forest Grove.

Willamette is the only one that is sticking to its home campus. It is also the one that is in the best financial shape by far, at least in terms of endowments. As are Reed and Lewis & Clark which are the other two Portland-area private schools that are also a big step above the others in terms of financial resources. You don't see Reed and Lewis & Clark opening up branch campuses around the region either.

[redguard57]

Originally Posted by texasdiver

They are all doing the opposite. They are all trying to expand into each other's territories. Pacific University also, which should be included in the discussion. Each school is opening up branch campuses and such in the Portland metro and elsewhere.

Linfield (which BTW changed its name to Linfield University this very week) has its nursing school in Portland and has adult education branches in 8 other communities.

George Fox has branch campus locations in Portland, Salem and Redmond as well as its home in Newberg.

Pacific University now has branch locations in Hillsboro, Eugene, and Woodburn as well as it home in Forest Grove.

Willamette is the only one that is sticking to its home campus. It is also the one that is in the best financial shape by far, at least in terms of endowments. As are Reed and Lewis & Clark which are the other two Portland-area private schools that are also a big step above the others in terms of financial resources. You don't see Reed and Lewis & Clark opening up branch campuses around the region either.

The George Fox Redmond "campus" is a few leased classrooms at night at one of the high schools that's in a complex with a middle achool and elementary. Which makes sense because the main program is an MAT, and the student teachers do their internship there.

[texasdiver]

Originally Posted by redguard57

The George Fox Redmond "campus" is a few leased classrooms at night at one of the high schools that's in a complex with a middle achool and elementary. Which makes sense because the main program is an MAT, and the student teachers do their internship there.

Yeah. I don't know what they are all doing. Obviously these small schools aren't all building fully functioning branch campuses. I'm just pointing out that far from consolidating and joining with each other in the face of financial pressures, a number of the small schools in the state are going in the opposite direction and expanding their footprint with branches. Maybe that actually is the magic ticket to financial viability. I don't really know. It isn't my area of expertise. It was just an observation on my part. It's not something that I see the top schools doing. But then many they don't have to.