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There are health benefits to moderate alcohol consumption. And there is a such thing as moderate, non-abusive, non-alcoholic drinking.
Suggestions from the experts vary, but moderate, healthy drinking usually is considered 2-4 standard drinks (5 ounce glass of wine, 1 beer, 1.5 ounces of hard liquor) in a given day for men (and about half that for women), while drinking no more than 5 days per week. I consider full bottle of wine, a six pack of beer, or several ounces of hard liquor - which are all roughly equavelent in alcohol content - to be on the heavy end of healthy drinking. If a person is drinking on the heavy end of healthy drinking nearly every time or every time they drink, they may be on the verge of a problem.
I don't think there's anything healthy about 4 drinks in a day. I'm not saying someone who has 4 drinks each day is necessarily an alcoholic, but 4 drinks is excessive by anyone's measure.
The studies that have found health benefits to a daily drink usually focus on red wine and resveratrol. The amounts of wine used by daily drinkers in these studies are often well less than 1 glass of red wine. They've also found supplements of resveratrol are all but useless, that for some reason, moderate intake of red wine has very positive effects on the heart and brain.
Still, that makes no sense because the person is an alcoholic if they aren't able to drink normally, should they choose to have a drink.
I use the term 'ex', when I'm talking to non-drinkers, or those that don't understand alcoholism - as it just seems to work better. (certainly sounds a bit more user-friendly at work)
but the willpower part, then yes - it can be done!
I see alcoholism as a temporary , acquired mental illness that can be de-activated as long as the user stays away from the first drink
As I said before, I disagree that alcoholism can be "controlled" with willpower. Yes, that is something that is talked about extensively in the Big Book of AA. Yes, I was involved in AA for about 10 years of my sobriety, but only because it was required for my profession. I haven't been to a meeting for > 10 years now.
I'm a RN, so when I started having problems that affected my job (calling in sick, coming to work hung over, under the influence from the night before, poor performance on the job, memory issues, etc), my employer required that I seek treatment. I went to a 30 day inpatient program. And then I was required to participate in a professional recovery group, and going to 12 step meetings was a requirement, as was random drug screens. I was actually required to participate way longer than other medical professionals that were reported to the state, partially, because about 4 years into my sobriety, another hospital I worked at did report me to the state! Even though I was sober, but apparently in a dry drunk state of mind.
Which goes back to the whole willpower thing. Willpower over an addiction, is white knuckling it, and it is nearly impossible to beat the whole white knuckling situation. I'm still dealing with this, with sugar...sugar addiction is something that many alcoholics & drug addicts fall back on to. It has been found that sugar addiction is much like alcoholism and produces a low level of alcohol in the system...(I don't remember exactly how it works. I really haven't thought about any of this for years). I had an ex-crack addict boyfriend describe his whole craving phenomena was exactly what I experienced regarding sugar! I know, sounds crazy, but true.
Anyways, of course AA always talks about a profound spiritual experience that is needed to overcome. I'm totally cool with this, though at the time I got sober, I was not. I was a spiritual seeker & really didn't believe in this whole greater power thing. It's a non-issue now, as I am a born again believer. However, for this conversation, what I have found is that one has to become aware of the thoughts in their head, and learn to change them, thus the behavior. I'm very much a proponent of the teachings of Dr Caroline Leaf regarding the brain & our thoughts. She comes from a christian perspective, but their are plenty of others out there who share her opinions.
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Originally Posted by MOKAN
If "Sam" hasn't ever drunk again, then he did not do what I was asking in my original post.
Yeah, I realized that after i posted.
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Originally Posted by MOKAN
What do you mean when you said you "couldn't stop"?
Usually people who cannot stop - or, in other words, 'experience the phenomenon of craving' - do experience blackouts. Drinking fast ("drinking to get drunk"), in such a way that causes a rapid rise in blood-alcohol level, is what causes blackouts. It's been my experience and observation that many folks don't realize they're having blackouts when they first begin having them.
This is fairly complicated, and I really haven't thought about it for a long time. I stopped going to AA over 10 years ago. I never wanted to have a crutch, and to me AA was a crutch just as the booze was a crutch. It was necessary for a period of time. I really can't remember all their sayings and philosophies.
I was a dual diagnosis poly drug user. I was depressed also. And I took all kinds of other drugs..prescription drugs, illegal drugs..never mainlined, never did LSD, but did nearly everything else. I used for 16 years. I will say that after careful monitoring in the professional group, I have learned to "control" narcotic analgesic use.
I would drink until I was a stumbling, fall down, vomiting, angry, fighting drunk. Nice, huh? (so grateful that is over!) I remember every pathetic moment. That's what I mean, I wasn't a black out drunk. They say a woman alcoholic "cooks" quicker than a male alcoholic. I think at 16 years I was on the edge of being cooked. There are many different opinions as to at what stage of the alcoholism one has blackouts. It is my understanding that this can occur at any stage. I think it has to do with the individuals ability to metabolize the alcohol. I must have had good metabolism back in those days. I was still "functionable" in that on the outside I appeared to have it all together, I still had a job, I did not have any DUI's, I'd never been in a car crash, at that point I was still married, I paid my bills, and I did not drink daily. But when I did drink, I drank until I could drink no more.
So...not being able to stop...hmm..I thought about getting drunk/high all the time. I just wanted to be numb. I didn't like myself. I didn't believe I could be happy. I didn't really believe I had a future, like normal people did. I always felt like I was on the outside looking in at all the "happy" people. So..I was always planning my next drunk.
Say I had friends over for dinner. And we had 2 six-packs, I was always scamming to make sure I had the next bottle, and the last bottle. I would drink until there was no booze left. And then we would go out for more. Say we were going out for the evening. I/we would get drunk at home (it's cheaper ya know), then we would go to the bar & continue to drink. Once, we even left the bar & went to a store for more, to keep in the car, so we could leave the bar & load up, and we even drank from open containers in the store..went back to the bar, drank more, until one of my friends passed out, and had to be driven home. We took him back to our place. There wasn't enough alcohol to satisfy me. Or put me out of my misery. I can remember many a time being sick, laying on the floor, wishing someone would take me to the ER for a stomach pumping...seriously. I worked in the ER. I knew what happened there when drunks came in. I even worked in an alcohol diversion program...where you inject the person with drugs to increased their heart rate, and make them really nauseated, and then they drank a huge amount of alcohol while we talked shop about drinking, then they would vomit it all up while you told them what a good job they were doing...and I lasted for 3 days since I was arriving in a hang over state. I did not want THAT to interfere with my drinking! Another example, I was on my way to a church marriage retreat at the coast. We had a 2 hour drive. It was boring. We started drinking. I think my ex & I went through 3 bottles of wine to the halfway point, where we refurnished our supplies. When we got to the coast, we stopped in a bar & drank more. Now, I 'm stumbling, falling into people & furniture, slurring. Get back in the car, have to stop so I can vomit in the grassy median. We make it to the hotel, but I'm totally sick. I can't even say hi to the church group. I'm in the bathroom, urinating on myself & vomiting at the same time. No control. Talk about morally incomprehensible demoralization!! (I never, never, never want to go hear again!!) I spent the weekend in my room suffering from alcoholic pancreatitis. I think I made it to one meeting, and I hung my head in shame. Such a lady! That was the point that I realized I was an alcoholic and I had a problem.
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Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda
that sounds about right, quite like the AA philosophy.
avoiding bars must be quite high on the list, and staying in at night etc..
I find the smell of beer should be avoided as well
Well...actually, the official AA stance is that you can go to bars & other drinking establishment, IF you have business there. And there is no rule against going out at night. Recovery is all about cleaning up your past messes, and moving on with enjoying life!
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Originally Posted by Radio Flyer
I rarely use the term, but this is why we're called "recovering alcoholics". Its to remind ourselves, as well as others that it's a lifelong thing. We're never done with it.
AA says "recovering alcoholic". I always hated that term. At this point in the game, I say I'm a recovered alcoholic. I don't believe that I'm cured. Or that I can drink again. It's just not worth it to me to dabble with it. I don't ever want to return there to that place of morally incomprehensible demoralization!! Basically, life sucked during those years. I don't ever want to return to that place!
Alcoholics become alcoholics because they have lost that mechanism of control. After 2-3 drinks when most say, "thats enough" and stop drinking the true alcoholic doesn't. They don't have that trigger to shut off the consumption so their "trigger" to shut off has to be pulled before the first drink.
I have an extended family of recovering alcoholics and have discussed it at length with them. To an alcoholic the brand/style of alcohol or location doesn't matter.....they drink anything/anywhere/anytime. Their brain has craved the alcohol regardless of the time/place/type. This was odd to hear for me, I honestly don't care for hard liquor/wine/domestic beers. If I attend an event that doesn't have a beer I like, I won't drink at all. I won't suffer through a Bud Light because it is the only beer they have just to drink......I'll pass completely. My uncles would obviously start with something they prefer but once the ball got rolling, it simply didn't matter. Then drugs would fall into the mix, washed down with more alcohol until blackout time. Wouldn't matter if it started as a Christmas party, after work beer at the bar or even a BBQ at home but it would end in the same blackout unless the booze (or money to buy more) ran out too quickly.
Their standard answer when it comes to drinking: "I have drank enough in my lifetime for my next lifetime too"! They know one beer, one glass of wine won't end with them panhandling under the bridge but they know once that ball is rolling it is too tough for them to stop. They also have gotten a sense of pride from their accomplishment. In social settings I have seen them drink non-alcoholic beers and really once it is in the glass (no bottle) no one knows they are not drinking.
One uncle hit 30 years, two more are at the 10-15 year marks. They do regret somewhat wasting their lives and missing out on living more but they are still young enough to enjoy what they have left. Lots of legal bills, rehab costs on top of the physical damage they did to their bodies in addition to the actual drug/alcohol purchases over the years. My father was never big on alcohol/drugs after seeing what it did to his immediate family.
I completely agree with what you are saying (i didn't realize I was so opinionated on this subject )
To an alcoholic the brand/style of alcohol or location doesn't matter.....they drink anything/anywhere/anytime. Their brain has craved the alcohol regardless of the time/place/type.
Exactly. Of course, we have our preferences, but once the buzz is going it really doesn't matter what one drinks, unless you are trying to look like a booze snob...I did that during my wine drinking years. However, I could not drink the 2 buck chuck from a gallon jug, unless it was Gallo! I guess I was a snob.
They also have gotten a sense of pride from their accomplishment.
Totally. I/we always mixed in a little cocaine or amphetamines to keep the booze flowing. I could pretty much keep up with most people, drink per drink, but the speed helped me keep going. It was very much about holding my own with many, many drinks on board. Definitely a competitive thing.
I never liked the non-alcoholic drinks. It was too fake for me. A virgin margarita, why? Why drink one without the booze...it's nothing without the booze... the calories sure aren't worth it. Give me a cheesecake instead!! By the time I got sober, I really didn't care what others thought. I no longer needed to fit in.
I have no problem with friends drinking in front of me, haven't for years. I have no problem going into a bar...it's not exactly my favorite place to go, especially when people start getting stupid. But if I'm there to eat, or hang out with friends, it's ok. If my friends start getting stupid, I leave. I've been around too many stupid drunks, and I just don't find it to be an enjoyable experience.
I'm sorry but I feel compelled to respond again!!!
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Originally Posted by MOKAN
Sometimes I wonder if AA trains some individuals to be alcoholics, even though they are actually not so. To join such a group, it's pretty much expected that an individual label themself an alcoholic, to say "hi my name is ____ and I'm an alcoholic" at the beginning of the meetings. I think there's a possibility that some folks get caught up in that program as a result of abusing alcohol and its consequences are actually not alcoholics and because they follow the program they never realize that it was a choice that they were making to drink heavily and abuse alcohol and thus if they ever 'relapse', they will, in fact, 'pick up where they left off' because they never attempted to learn to drink right because they've been ingrained with the idea that its a lost cause. In this sense, AA could be having non-alcoholics mimic alcoholic behavior.
Brainwashed by AA! That's funny! Nope. Most people are there kicking & screaming. No one wants to be there & are looking for any escape out. Many people are required to attend AA for DUI's, or nurses/MDs in state diversion programs, all to have a "court card" signed, but not everyone who attends is an alcoholic. Many just got caught under the influence. Some are moderate drinkers. I was a reluctant alcoholic... I actually felt more akin to the addicts...a "cooler" group, and it took time for me to admit that I was an alcoholic vs an addict. For some reason, I thought alcoholics were seedier...but it really just took doing an inventory of my drinking history & the consequences of my actions (in the 4th step) to realize, yep, I was an alcoholic.
There are a few key things anybody shouldn't do in regard to alcohol. One is to self medicate. And just because a person has some sort of issues and may benefit from medication doesn't mean they are an alcoholic. But self medicating may result in them becoming an alcoholic. Another major thing is that if somebody gets flustered and very upset (some sort of emotional immaturity) and they try to turn that into and confuse themselves into interpreting it as an "urge" to drink so they can get wasted - I'm not sure that's an alcoholic either, but doing so long enough might turn somebody into an alcoholic. There seems to be some "invisible line", like somebody else mentioned, that can be crossed, at which point there is no return - or at least that's how it's said to be. Alcoholism has a threshold, sort of like schizophrenia, and probably other diseases as well.
When people are hurting, they may or may not 1) be able to identify that they are indeed hurting, and 2) that they are using substances (or anything else, food, caffiene, sex, shopping, exercise....) to self-medicate. I only know I did this in hindsight. It was never a conscious decision to do this. Looking back at my family history, I was genetically predisposed to alcoholism.
Emotional immaturity...hmm...I don't think that is really an indicator or a sign of eventual alcoholism. If you look at the research concerning PTSD, there is the idea that emotional growth stops at the point of a trauma. In other circles, we call that "arrested development". The physical & intellect continue to grow, but the emotions are frozen, so to speak, at the chronological age/point of time of the trauma. In my case, I started drinking when I was 13 years old, and yea, some other traumatic stuff happened at that time. And yes, the ways I handled life emotionally was very much like a pre-teen. But I don't believe it is the cause of the addiction.
Another thing I've noticed is that when somebody is going to compelled to drink or chooses to drink alcoholically, to abuse alcohol - they do not care what it is they drink. They will drink cheap vodka. Stuff that smells and tastes like hairspray. And they will open it right away, drink from the bottle, etc.
Where do you get this idea? ROTFLOL!!! I only drank cheap Brand booze when it was on sale. Otherwise, I drank quality booze. Even foreign booze. I especially liked the Russian vodka. We bought wine at wineries. I rarely drank from the bottle. Unless it was a long necked beer bottle...or other beer bottle/can. Or unless, I was on a beach & the cups got sandy. We always did it the classy way. Glasses. Crystal. Red solo cup.
When somebody goes after that stuff and behaves that way, I think it's a sure sign they just want the alcohol, to get drunk, and it's a sign of what's to come. I've witnessed a person behave the way I just described and also drink normally, such as wine with food, in no hurry to open the bottle, not drinking fast, and not even finishing half the bottle. So I don't completely understand. This particular individual seems to be an 'alcoholic' at times, and not at others. He went to AA for a couple of years, says he learned a lot from listening, but never fully quit drinking. He was having major and serious issues drinking, like lots of drunken disorderly, passing out in public and being taken to the hospital via ambulance, like almost everytime he drank! Now, after he went to AA those 2 years, he seems to be able to drink normally.
Whereas his focus was on nothing but the alcohol, now when he drinks he's not obsessed with it. I've quit preaching to this person that he should follow his program and not drink and let it go. He's been fine for probably 6 months now with no 'relapses' of alcoholic drinking/getting into trouble, but since he is drinking I tend to think he will go back to being the way he was eventually. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe really figured something out.
Maybe he wasn't a real alcoholic. Hard to know. But time will tell. One thing for sure, it does not help for family/friends to tell their drinking friends what to do, UNLESS, it is in the form of an professional intervention. Perhaps Ala-non is in order so you can learn to let these folks go (not necessarily say goodbye).
Last edited by caligirlz; 01-16-2013 at 12:15 AM..
I don't think there's anything healthy about 4 drinks in a day. I'm not saying someone who has 4 drinks each day is necessarily an alcoholic, but 4 drinks is excessive by anyone's measure.
The studies that have found health benefits to a daily drink usually focus on red wine and resveratrol. The amounts of wine used by daily drinkers in these studies are often well less than 1 glass of red wine. They've also found supplements of resveratrol are all but useless, that for some reason, moderate intake of red wine has very positive effects on the heart and brain.
Well, there are folks who rationalize drinking too much, but then there are folks who can do the opposite of that too. Never more than one (or less than one) drink in any given day isn't realistic for normal drinkers. Perhaps if the person isn't a drinker, but is specifically having a glass of red wine per day for the resveratrol and any other supposed health benefits, then I find it likely the the amount you suggest is recommended. However, don't confuse studies that are focused on finding the ideal amount of drinking for supposed health benefits with studies that provide guidelines for what's considered a healthy range of drinking for people who simply enjoy drink. For the latter and from my gathering of the multiple American studies I've read, between 2-4 standard drinks per day for men and about half that for women (5 ounces of wine, 12 ounces of beer, 1.5 ounces of 80-proof liquor) up to 5 days per week is within the healthy range. I've heard European studies are more liberal. Thus I've personally concluded that up to a bottle of wine, a six pack of beer, or roughly a third of a bottle of 80-proof liquor - all of which have about the same amount of alcohol content - is on the heavier side of the healthy drinking range. However, I think somebody who drinks that maximum amount everyday or everytime they drink - they are likely on the verge of a problem. If one is actively/constantly thinking about how much they are drinking - they are likely on the verge of a problem.
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Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda
so true about the brand/type of alcohol.
top notch Scotch whiskey or French Champagne will have the same end result as bargain basement brown paper bag stuff!
it's all the same
Alcohol is alcohol, but I think what somebody reaches for to drink may say something about them. Somebody who just wants to get blitzed may reach for cheap crap. There's the factor of "why would they drink that? The stuff is like hairspray!" Well, the answer is they just want to get drunk.
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(certainly sounds a bit more user-friendly at work)
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