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I get it. But at the same time it is terrifying to do that. I'm not a fearful person by nature but this is changing the core of my being.
I was at a monastery retreat once and one of the monks said that Buddhism was the hardest religion when it came to faith. In other religions one must have faith in an invisible God. In Buddhism, one must have faith in themselves to become something greater than they are. That's a faith I'm not sure I have.
Being a normal human being does sound intriguing though, which is why I'll stick with it for at least a while and maybe peek down the rabbit hole before deciding if I want to follow the white rabbit.
To change a person with narcissistic anti-social personality would be as hard as to change a gay person into being straight. Or to change a straight person into being gay.
In other words your personality feels normal to you. But, your personality feels normal to you. You are to be commended for being an self-aware narcissist. Deep inside you are highly insecure and seek external validation. And you probably lack empathy for others.
This guy a rare (most are unaware) self aware narcissist may be able to help. He has a lot of videos.
My shrink says that because I am not a full blown sociopath and I'm willing to talk openly about it, there may be hope for me. I can, if I work hard on it, feel love and remorse and all those other things.
According to the conventional physiological view of psychopathy (which is the same thing as sociopathy), this is not possible. The conventional view is that psychopaths are (either innately or through upbringing, or a combination of both) incapable of true empathy and love, and effectively unchangeable, at least clinically. I say this is the conventional view because I disagree with it. Traditional psychological methods have proved highly ineffective at treating psychopathy. With an antisocial personality disorder diagnosis, you will find many will not wish to treat you.
In the past, psychopathy was thought to be incurable because it's associated with certain brain abnormalities that cause psychopaths to lack the same sort of normal emotional processing. For example, the lack of fear that many psychopaths display is a corollary to this and is caused by the same processing deficits that cause a lack of empathy. Once the brain matures beyond a certain point, it's very hard to change brain structure and/or function, but it's not impossible. Recent research suggests that, instead of lacking any capacity to feel empathy, psychopaths can simply feel empathy if they try to do so:
You'll notice this is relatively recent research. And it flies in the face of what we thought we knew about psychopathy. One of the pioneers in the field of research on psychopathy is Robert Hare, who developed the psychopathy checklist, which is widely used to diagnose antisocial personality disorder, and was probably use by your shrink. All of his research points to the notion that psychopathy is a fixed trait and is essentially incurable. But we all know science is constantly changing, and I think in the coming years, the field of psychology will move away from the idea of psychopathy as a fixed trait. However, effectively treating it in a clinical setting may remain rather difficult if not impossible.
What these new developments do suggest, however, is a greater degree of freewill in psychopaths than was previously thought. Psychopathy is no excuse for antisocial behavior, and in a way, it's may not even be a good excuse for lack of empathy anymore.
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What if, years from now, sociopaths were just like gays: regular people, out and proud? I mean, society needs us: without us, there would be no need for laws and police would have no jobs. That, and we have shaped history, from Genghis Khan to Dick Chaney and Thomas Edison.
Many historical and contemporary figures have been "diagnosed" with psychopathy in a most ridiculous fashion. How do we know any of these men even meet the diagnostic criteria? For those who commit atrocities, their crimes are often more easily explainable by moral exclusion than psychopathy.
You are absolutely right. I probably wouldn't listen to anyone whining "think of the children!" or such. But...my shrink kind of got to me. Well, my psychologist, not the one who told me I have a medium case of ASPD. He told me that human connection, love and absolute trust are tied to empathy and are paid for with guilt. He went on to tell me how I'm missing out on the best things in life. That got to me, and kept me in therapy.
When I see people hugging and loving one another, a part of me wants to think they are just as hollow as I am...but if they aren't, there is something I'm missing and maybe having a conscious is a price worth paying.
But then again, it would be suicidal for me to change. I am what I am, and if I stop being me the "me" that is here now will die and something else will take its place. Will my "reincarnated form" be worth it?
I usually know everything, but that is one question I have no answer for.
Why would it be suicidal for you to change? If you think of your inability to connect with people as a disability, change would mean that things would get better for you. Imagine a person born with cerebral palsy who was never able to walk. If a treatment existed that enabled the person to walk, his existence would fundamentally change. IMO, it would be a great improvement, and not "suicidal."
You may not consider you inability to connect, or love, or feel empathy to be a disability. But if you do, you should probably keep working with the therapist.
Do you think that, deep down, you carry enormous rage for the injustices perpetrated against you as a child? And that your sociopathy - not caring about people, using them, manipulating them for your own gain - is your way of "getting back at" those who neglected, abused, and did not care about you?
I think you're on the right track...
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Originally Posted by mordant
I think that a true sociopath simply doesn't have the circuitry cabinet that provides empathy plugged in at all. There are plenty of stories of sociopaths coming from the very same family as one or more empaths.
What one might term a "synthetic sociopath" could perhaps simply have empathy numbed or overridden by influences such as you suggest. But when it comes to mental health, I tend to think that since there are many possible responses to the environment and upbringing you are talking about, such as overcompensating, anxiety, etc., I think that genetics plays the larger role. It also fits with my growing conviction that nature tends to win over nurture more often than not. The role of a nurturer (parent) in my view is to do no harm and to provide for the child's safety and security, but beyond that, all the snuggles and attention in the world can fail to produce the desired result, or backfire.
I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it can absolutely be environmental. Giving a child only snuggles and attention isn't giving the child everything he needs, either.
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Originally Posted by stava
I disagree. They may not have the wiring for empathy, but I believe that is ultimately CAUSED by nurture (or lack thereof).
Whenever I hear the statement "he grew up in a normal, loving family" in reference to a sociopath, I shake my head. Normal, loving, empathically-attuned parents do not raise sociopathic children. It just doesn't make sense. A sociopath might CLAIM their family was normal, and outsiders might have SEEN them as normal, but I guarantee you, something there was far from normal.
Completely agree. What people appear to be like, is not necessarily what they are like. Appearances are not everything, although too many in this society put everything in to that.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
I think it's both. Someone born with normal wiring in my situation may have turned out normal, but I turned out like this. If things were worse than they were growing up maybe I would have turned into a serial killer. I was neglected, not abused, so I think I have a pathological need for love from everyone that I never got from my mother, and so I'm a "serial helper" who gets off on seeing people's eyes light up and giving me affirmation from doing something for them...if I was abused instead, maybe I would have had a pathological need for revenge and may have ended up killing or hurting people who reminded me of her.
No. You'll find many people who were abused who can still grow up to be good people who have no need for revenge. If you don't want society putting tags on you, then don't put tags on other portions of society. We only know the basics, we don't know everything that you went through. Saying that your mother was an alcoholic and neglected you doesn't tell the whole story, and you know that.
The question is: Did you EVER have empathy? A lot of times, young kids do not, but they learn it. Some young kids have it from a young age, but many do not. Yours may never have developed, but that's environmental:
...Unlike intelligence and physical attractiveness, which depend largely on genetics, empathy is a skill that children learn...
...Although the best training for empathy begins in infancy, it’s never too late to start. Infants and toddlers learn the most by how their parents treat them when they are cranky, frightened, or upset...
Developing empathy is a gradual process....Empathy, an important component of social and emotional development, emerges within consistent and caring relationships over several years. Much of the groundwork is laid during early attachments formed in infancy...
Meanwhile, this paper says it is both, although it does lean heavily on environmental:
I get it. But at the same time it is terrifying to do that. I'm not a fearful person by nature but this is changing the core of my being.
But in a good way!
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
I was at a monastery retreat once and one of the monks said that Buddhism was the hardest religion when it came to faith. In other religions one must have faith in an invisible God. In Buddhism, one must have faith in themselves to become something greater than they are. That's a faith I'm not sure I have.
Being a normal human being does sound intriguing though, which is why I'll stick with it for at least a while and maybe peek down the rabbit hole before deciding if I want to follow the white rabbit.
Buddhism could be helpful for you, OP. I don't view it as a religion, but as psychology. In fact, it's gaining in popularity among psychologists to study Buddhism, and incorporate some of its principles into their practice.
The main thing is developing an observer function that is always monitoring your actions and your motives. You have enough self-awareness to do that, plus you seem to have some desire to change for the better. Or at least, to check out the idea of changing for the better. This observer function is called "mindfulness". You try to be ever mindful of what you're doing and why you're doing it. Are your motives coming from a place of ego, or from a place of compassion for others? That's what you watch for. You gradually replace ego satisfaction as a motive for helping others as a motive. And you watch your life transform as you go through this process.
Just that alone--mindfulness--can be a powerful practice and agent for change.
My brother was initially diagnosed with schizophrenia as well as a Cluster B personality disorder (sociopathy). When he was finally successfully treated (including meds) for the schizophrenia, VOILA! His sociopathy also responded well. In other words, it went away.
So much for diagnoses. Sometimes things aren't all that clear cut. Properly treated, my brother is an empathetic, friendly, intelligent, kind hearted person - no sign of sociopathy.
Make everything about rewards and not punishments. Most of us don' respond to threats or fear, but we can be enticed with rewards. If he is good, give him a treat and make the treat based on what he actually does with no room for how he "meant well". Just a thought.
From the first two pages (who has time to read more) - not a sociopath, just self-obsessed, self-absorbed, and immature...like 90% of the online forum posting community under the age of 21. I never do understand this need to create a thread about...themselves. The craving for self attention.
The OP sounds like a 17 your old girl that just grew out of a "goth" phase and ready to move unto another trend. Another sad product of the modern version of the "me" generation. Go watch a Lady GaGa music video, post a tweet, download a selfie on your facebook account, you will all feel better.
From the first two pages (who has time to read more) - not a sociopath, just self-obsessed, self-absorbed, and immature...like 90% of the online forum posting community under the age of 21. I never do understand this need to create a thread about...themselves. The craving for self attention.
The OP sounds like a 17 your old girl that just grew out of a "goth" phase and ready to move unto another trend. Another sad product of the modern version of the "me" generation. Go watch a Lady GaGa music video, post a tweet, download a selfie on your facebook account, you will all feel better.
But....according to the OP, he's a 30 year old male.
Anyways, I enjoyed this thread a lot and I, like a couple of other posters, just think the OP is being "uncomfortably honest". I have a "friend" of a few years who's a lot like the OP although I'm thoroughly certain he lacks the introspection to step back and analyze himself like the OP has, or at the very least if he did he'd never share his findings with anyone. He's a little different though in that he has no problem constantly complimenting himself and possesses no shred of shame whatsoever. I remember a few years back him and I were in a very similar post-college dark era where we were working odd jobs, living with our parents and wondering where the hell our lives were going but even through that I remember observing him and thinking "I've never seen such a loser on paper be so damned proud of themselves.". His outwardly swagger was still impeccable through all that though when it were just him and I alone he would break down the wall at times and express that he was worried about his future. He's learned over the years that I don't buy his BS like most of his audience and I think he appreciates that in some weird way.
Maybe he's more of a narcissist than a sociopath, but I sense that darkness in him too that you've expressed in this thread or maybe it's more appropriate to call it coldness. Not to mention I'm probably a little screwed in the head too if I've been just hanging out with this guy off and on for five years almost now purely to study him like some kind of social project.
My brother was initially diagnosed with schizophrenia as well as a Cluster B personality disorder (sociopathy). When he was finally successfully treated (including meds) for the schizophrenia, VOILA! His sociopathy also responded well. In other words, it went away.
So much for diagnoses. Sometimes things aren't all that clear cut. Properly treated, my brother is an empathetic, friendly, intelligent, kind hearted person - no sign of sociopathy.
That's great, I'm glad your brother was finally successfully treated!
You're absolutely correct, diagnosis are not always clear cut. I have a Master's degree in Psychology and worked in the mental health field for many years. At one time in my career, I worked at a community mental health center and we treated a lot of clients that had a very severe diagnosis, including antisocial personality disorder/psychopathy/sociopathy. It's commonly assumed that there are no treatment options for that but that may not be correct for every person. If the cause of the mental diagnosis is primarily environmental vs. genetic for example, for that particular person there may be some viable treatment options. In my years working in the mental health field I learned that it's never wise to assume anything. It's always worth trying an intervention. Sometimes it can make a difference.
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