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One thing you overlooked. You mentioned men dressing 'feminine' and getting manicures. Well, the female equivalent of that would be not shaving/waxing/removing body hair, not wearing makeup, wearing short hair, wearing 'boyish clothes', all of which probably most men aren't that into.
Masculine females and feminine men are still the most friendzoned group of people
That is true. The more masculine the female, the less attractive she is to heterosexual males. They are much more likely to be friend zoned or seem as "one of the guys". Butch and female body builders are great examples of that. I don't think a female riding a pick-up truck or using a gun makes them more masculine. It's a major turn off for a man to have to compete with a woman when it comes to masculinity. I know many people may disagree but female masculinity is not attractive quality for the majority of heterosexual males.
Most women don't want a feminized male. They are perceived as weak and are quickly friend zoned. Why do you think women love having gay male friends. Usually masculine men are perceived as being protective and strong, which are qualities that attract women. It's also true with many lesbians who crave masculinity by being with Butch Lesbians who come off as very masculine females. It's also similar to how lesbians crave masculinity in bed by using things like strap-on dildos and other things that resemble the male anatomy.
I completely agree with you that there is a line that cannot be crossed for masculine women if they want to attract men. But I also think the examples you gave really demonstrated my point. In our society, no one really criticizes straight women who enjoy partaking in activities like football or paintball. In fact a lot of guys that are into sports love the idea of playing football with their girlfriends. No one makes the assumption that a woman who is into things like football, paintball, hunting, etc is gay or bi. But if a straight guy is really into fashion, shopping, manicures/pedicures, giving out beauty tips, etc he often catches a lot of flack for it and is accused of being gay or at least bi. That's just the reality of the matter.
So there is a line, but it seems like it's MUCH easier for men to cross the line of being "too feminine" than it is for women to cross the line of being "too masculine".
Your right. Male masculinity is always under scrutinization or being challenged. A man can't be into fashion, be a make-up artist, etc without being questioned of being gay or bi-sexual. There's definitely a double standard with that.
Your right. Male masculinity is always under scrutinization or being challenged. A man can't be into fashion, be a make-up artist, etc without being questioned of being gay or bi-sexual. There's definitely a double standard with that.
Paradoxically as others have mentioned, this is partly because female pursuits are more looked down upon by men. I mean I was just thinking how high heels are like the most impractical thing to wear, especially on a night out. I see drunk girls stumbling all over, unable to walk, let alone in heels, carried by their friends, and it's just ridiculous. They make noise, you can't run in them, how do they dance in some of those heels either? I heard a saying that a lot of dressy female attire is more like a 'costume', almost an exaggerated parody of hyperfeminity, that's why drag queens are so attracted to it. It's weird how in most species it is the male with the bright feathers.etc, yet in our culture women assume that role.
Even if women are doing more traditionally 'manly' things, they're still women and they're not acting like men-- they're just not helpless, childlike or needy. I don't think that any of those things are exclusively feminine, though I do think this 'softer' generation of men who had video games instead of a great war/draft are probably more likely to feel threatened by women who aren't smaller/weaker/less mature/less intelligent... they've never really had that male bonding experience and aren't true warriors, so it's difficult for them to find women who are softer and weaker than they are.
An obligatory paragraph taking a cheap shot at us young men. But if you had actually been paying attention to the thread, you would notice that the older or traditional minded men are the ones that have problems with women who are into more 'masculine' hobbies and activities.
It also never ceases to amuse me that some on CD has this ignorant, poisonous testosterone-filled mindset that war is this glorious thing. If you think it's so glorious go to your nearest veterans hospital especially the psychiatric department and see just how cool it is to have PTSD from seeing your fellow soldiers, and random civilians die in horrific ways on an almost daily basis.
I don't know, but from my experience, masculine women are viewed as intimidating and ugly, while feminine men are viewed as friendly and 'cute'. Fashion industries are usually owned by feminine men and I don't hear any scrutiny over this. Butch women, sadly, are usually referred to as "manhaters". Men are not too friendly around those. At the same time however, women have no problem being around feminine men. When it comes to looks and their physicality, the masculine woman cops it hard (superficial men and gossipy women on the other hand, will talk about how she can't dress properly, etc).
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly
Most women don't want a feminized male. They are perceived as weak and are quickly friend zoned. Why do you think women love having gay male friends. Usually masculine men are perceived as being protective and strong, which are qualities that attract women.
I have to disagree with this. Feminized looking men on average seem to get a high sex appeal in the media. I see much more young women having crushes on men like Zac Efron and Johnny Depp, rather than on manlier rugged ones like Jason Statham and Bruce Willis. Sure, women are not attracted to men who act sassy and full-on girly, but they seem to like masculine acting men who have a 'feminine' look (hairless, pretty, soft)...I know I'm stereotyping here - there are women into hairy, buffer dudes of course, but the former types do STAND OUT.
"Why do women befriend gay males"? What do you mean? Women befriend gay guys because they both dig men and might might share interests. There is no 'friendzoning' here. Not to mention, a good number of women have had the hots for gay men (whether'd be their friend or someone else). So who friendzoned who here?
I don't know, but from my experience, masculine women are viewed as intimidating and ugly, while feminine men are viewed as friendly and 'cute'. Fashion industries are usually owned by feminine men and I don't hear any scrutiny over this. Butch women, sadly, are usually referred to as "manhaters". Men are not too friendly around those. At the same time however, women have no problem being around feminine men. When it comes to looks and their physicality, the masculine woman cops it hard (superficial men and gossipy women on the other hand, will talk about how she can't dress properly, etc).
I have to disagree with this. Feminized looking men on average seem to get a high sex appeal in the media. I see much more young women having crushes on men like Zac Efron and Johnny Depp, rather than on manlier rugged ones like Jason Statham and Bruce Willis. Sure, women are not attracted to men who act sassy and full-on girly, but they seem to like masculine acting men who have a 'feminine' look (hairless, pretty, soft)...I know I'm stereotyping here - there are women into hairy, buffer dudes of course, but the former types do STAND OUT.
"Why do women befriend gay males"? What do you mean? Women befriend gay guys because they both dig men and might might share interests. There is no 'friendzoning' here. Not to mention, a good number of women have had the hots for gay men (whether'd be their friend or someone else). So who friendzoned who here?
Since you're from Australia, I won't scrutinized your post too harshly because I don't think you truly understand what I'm saying and also I'm speaking more from how things are in the United States more specifically. Of course both Australia and the United States are English speaking countries but there are cultural differences that exist.
Since you're from Australia, I won't scrutinized your post too harshly because I don't think you truly understand what I'm saying and also I'm speaking more from how things are in the United States more specifically. Of course both Australia and the United States are English speaking countries but there are cultural differences that exist.
Like I said, it's my personal outlook, my experience. I didn't correct you or anything. I just disagreed with you maturely and told you my opinion. My post wasn't there to be scrutinized. It was an opinion.
I'm pretty sure Australians view masculine and feminine people the same way you do. I never speak from Australia's point of view on things - I speak in a global sense. We are aware of stuff happening outside of our country. Most of our media and TV shows are from America and the UK.
"Why is female masculinity so much more accepted than male femininity in our society?"
Probably because in many societies, what women do and believe is of very little consequence! As long as most women push out babies and do the scut work men don't want to do, who cares if they're a little masculine? Cynical, perhaps, but what men do is more important and more worrisome if they don't act as they "should".
OMG, I have to say, I've got the theme song to All In The Family in my head, "those were the days, girls were girls and men were men, Mr. we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again". I think like a lot of people, objectively I believe people, male, female or somewhere in between, should feel free to be themselves and not have to try to define themselves according to gender norms. That said, my emotional reaction to masculine women and feminine men is the same, it's a turn-off. I can respect themas individuals who are being true to themselves, but my gut reaction is negative. I don't think I can help that, it's ingrained. I idealize conventionally feminine women and men who are, if not overtly masculine, not feminine. Perhaps younger generations don't have that reaction.
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