Blame, Death, and Suicide (addiction, therapy, woman, husband)

[K12144]

Each person is an individual and has their own unique situation. You can't make a blanket statement about who may or may not be to blame for every suicide that occurs.

[roodd279]

Thanks again sincerely for the feedback. I used Oprah as a euphemism for all pretend experts. I could use Maury Povich, does that help? He's still on. It's really not the important item here.



Look - last night was visitation, tomorrow is worship + family - I do not have time to read a book or seek counseling or anything else. I have time to ask around to anyone that might know, including a virtual crowd, right here.



And I am asking, quite simply: If you are a "newly minted" counselor of some kind, or you "teach" such folks as a professor, or you are clergy - what are you taught to say, in 2021? It's either (still) no one's fault - or it's "It depends."


That's it. Those are the options.


I was taught growing up it's no one's fault, or the fault of the deceased. Full stop. My parents were taught the same, and their parents, and the generation before that. It is only very - very - recently that the "it depends" entered the conversation.



The responses to my post show a growing number of folks would indeed blame themselves if they lost someone. This is hugely wrong. At its extreme, it means many of you could not offer any comfort to the spouse of the deceased.

[Lodestar]

I don't think there's a manual, other than perhaps a private organization's policies, for how a counselor is supposed to deal with survivor grief. I imagine a good counselor would, through asking questions, pinpoint a direction that would be most motivating and rewarding for the client to take.

I retired from the mental and chemical health field and as a result of that place strong emphasis on personal responsibility. As much as a patient can muster will dictate the success of his ability to maintain health.

When I read the OP I immediately thought of the conflict created in today's climate when someone who is different commits suicide and we get these articles of blanket condemnation of society for bullying or not being supportive enough. In that cruelty or thoughtlessness everyone but the suicide is held responsible. There's a recipe for creating guilt and it's own problems in a population.

It is good to recognize that something is fundamentally wrong with the suicide that perhaps no one created and no one can heal. For us to stay healthy and therefor useful to others it is necessary to emotionally detach (like a football game) from personal connection with those who are ill. We guide, we do our best with the information we have, we comfort or scold to try to move them forward.

Guilt can be a natural part of the grief process. It is to be recognized, learned from and self-forgiven, not worn like an albatross.

Ultimately what suicides do has to be considered them acting out of their own will however twisted that may have been at the time. Remembering that it is an act of a unhealthy mind we need to recognize that it may not make sense to us.

A tragedy and one of the great perils of caring even in the everyday world. How much we chose to beat ourselves up over what might seem like our mistakes is our own will, probably useless suffering and may make us too unbalanced to love and support others.

I think it's worth some introspection, admittance of guilt if there is guilt to apply and then forgiveness of self for being human. Anything more is probably attributing godlike qualities to one's self. We don't have the power to make or break other's life directions. If we did think of how many miracles could be created!

[Lodestar]

I don't think you need a group affirmation to know what to say OP. Do what feels right for you. Just being there is comforting.

If you think it may be hurtful save it for another day.

[K12144]

Originally Posted by roodd279

At its extreme, it means many of you could not offer any comfort to the spouse of the deceased.

There are plenty of ways to comfort someone without mentioning guilt or blame.

[roodd279]

Lodestar – thank you – I think we are in agreement there on a fundamental point – that the survivors are (generally) blameless.
the conflict created in today's climate when someone who is different commits suicide and we get these articles of blanket condemnation of society for bullying or not being supportive enough.
that is EXACTLY what I referring to. Perfectly stated.
I do appreciate all the input – but (without you possibly knowing any better) some of the posts apply more to a “distance” relationship.
This is not that. The folks who will need to hear “it’s not their fault” are close. Close to me. Close by me. It means NOT saying something is not an option.
Grief and Denial and all the rest come into play right now, but this isn’t about a long term thing – healing will come, to whatever degree that is possible – but just
the day to day adjusting” to this New Normal. And the comforting words MUST be, “It’s not your fault. It’s not my fault. It’s no one’s fault, and no one
will know what was in his head that day.”

If you say nothing in response to the question: “Was this MY fault?” – then you are leaving the door open a tiny crack for YES! That is not acceptable.
That door needs held shut with a firm NO. It’s no one’s fault. Please tell me that’s the real pro advice right now. “It Depends” is just not a thing in my world, and cannot possibly be how
some of you would actually answer in this situation. I’ve been asked. The answer is NO. Always. Not sometimes. Always.

There are plenty of ways to comfort someone without mentioning guilt or blame.
Totally agree. Helps me not at all, with looking in the mirror. Meantime, you can’t avoid mentioning it if someone else brings it up.

If you think it may be hurtful save it for another day. No – I mean, if you have something that might be hurtful in your heart right now – you don’t “save it.” You jettison it immediately, and no one needs to know. There is no place for that.

Anything more is probably attributing godlike qualities to one's self. We don't have the power to make or break other's life directions.
Exactly – and that goes the other way to, as in attributing godlike qualities to whoever else you want to blame. If you can’t do it for yourself – then it follows you cannot do it for someone else.



Thanks again, all - just this discussion helps me feel "normal" and that's all we're trying to do here.

[KemBro71]

I had a thought...

You're not a licensed professional (I assume that's what you mean by 'pro') so even if a pro or two commented here you're still not really qualified to converse with a loved one with 'pro' advice. The loving thing to do, and in all likelihood the correct answer, is to respond with a resounding NO when asked if it's my fault (from that loved one).

I would say your role is to be comforting and loving and gentle.

I suppose that if you're in the very rare instance where your loved one was somehow a incorrigible psychopath and had a history of aggressive harassment toward the dead person you might have a hard time telling them it's not their fault. But I can't imagine that's the case here and even then...I don't know that I'd actually use the word "fault" or "blame" as much as I might want to.

[Sonic_Spork]

About the only instance I can think of, where any sensible person that I know would talk about fault or blame in such a matter, is if a surviving person was an ABUSER of the deceased.

At this point in America at least, there is no excuse to torture another human being. You've got to be living under a damn rock to not understand that despair and depression are proliferating in today's world for a lot of reasons, and suicides are up. So a BULLY who is knowingly cruel to another person, someone who is not able to get away from them in particular... Yeah, if the target of their dedicated torment ends their own life, then maybe they should look in the mirror. There might be some blame there.

But there is a difference between acting in a normal or reasonable way, to someone, but perhaps not giving them everything they want, and the suicidal person then paints that as some kind of victimization... We cannot be responsible for how everyone perceives everything that we do. But it should not be hard to comprehend if you are acting reasonably or not.

A parent holding a child accountable for their actions and issuing sensible consequences is not being a bully. A parent who is beating their child on the other hand, IS.

A girl who turns down a boy in high school for a date, is not being a bully. A girl who then goes out of her way to viciously humiliate him and turn the whole class against him, IS.

But there is only one purpose in accepting that you might carry blame for anything. Only one. And that is to gain an understanding of the consequences of your behavior and do better in the future. That's it. That's all. It is not to martyr yourself so that other people can punish you, or wallow in self-recrimination, or to fish for pity or attention by crying about how it was all your fault. Those things are pointless. Not constructive.

So if you wronged someone, no matter the outcome, and you're feeling some guilt, then ask yourself how you can do better. If you are not prepared to do that, then shut up about it because there is no point to what you're doing. Responsibility has value. Blame for any other purpose does not.

[roodd279]

Thanks sonic. I am certainly no pro, I posted seeking pro advice. I do not want to be or pretend to be a pro. I only want to know what conventional wisdom is on this one issue (blame) from the folks that should know.
I agree entirely with your anti martyr point, which is why all involved right now need to know - it is 100% not their fault. (I made the mirror comment only to make the point that what applies to one here applies to all.)
I also agree that in some wierd cases there can be blame. Unfortunately, this new idea makes it very very difficult to draw a line for folks with self doubt.
It was easier to draw the line when it was always no one's fault.
My role is as you said. Thanks.

[Parnassia]

Sometimes the best way to "help" is simply to listen...and listen...and listen again. Let them pour it all out when that's all they can really do. You don't need to be pro anything to do that. It is also less likely to backfire and cause more pain for the person unintentionally.