Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Point being, a young teen is unable to reciprocate feelings of sexual attention relative to emotional immaturity/malleability (and the legal aspect, if applicable). Hence, I consider it to be a bit exploitative, in and of itself, the OP is asking how they potentially may feel (relative to returning such feelings) when it’s not rocket science to be attuned to the exploitive factor if one is psychologically healthy.
In other words, it is far more helpful to aid/stop those adults (per the OP’s title) who pursue such relationships or consider it ‘normal’ as a way to prevent it from harming (teenagers) upfront.
Two points here. Yes, the adult could manipulate a young one. That is very true. However, looking at it from the other side, young ones know how to manipulate the adults too. They can do so not only in a sexual sense. How many teens manipulate their parents, deceived them, and get do what they want by doing so?
It is important to be aware of that and not only assume that the young teen is so innocent every time.
So let us admit that often enough young one wants to have sex with adults and manipulate things to do so. Even a 15-year-old today is so much savvy in sexual matters that let us say of one in the 1950s. I know that because I lived during that time.
How many young teens have accused an adult after willingly manipulated and had sex with that person? That is not uncommon. So, we need to pay a very close attention to that part. Very often, the teen gets no punishment if later it was found how this individual made a false accusation. It is important to see each case in its entirety. Sometimes they have made false accusations or made it look so differently sexual encounters, ruined individuals' lives, and then go on like nothing after the truth is exposed.
So don't only think that teens are so innocent. Keep that in mind. We must not allow emotions to override objectivity so we can assess each case fairly.
On the second point, I agree that we need to make it an effort to stop adults from manipulating young teens because we also know that is true. The OP brought up a good point of wanting to know the harm done in cases of this type. Those adults that did so deserve a harsh punishment in my opinion. Because of their age they must have a much higher level of punishment that if a teen willingly manipulated an adult.
I will agree partially with you. The “Me Too” movement- I am sure every woman has a “me too” story. Your user name implies you are a male. You just don’t get it how often it happens. When the “Me Too” came about I told my husband some stories- his look on his face. It is just annoying what women have to put up with- and I am 64 years old- still goes on. Men are clueless how annoying it is.
Is anyone telling young girls/women that they might consider NOT making a kissy face or sticking their tongue out suggestively for every picture they put on the innerwebs for the entire world to see?
"Relationship" seemed to be the best term I could think of to describe a pairing of two people that is at least somewhat "consensual," if only on the surface, by which I mean a pairing that does not involve the use of force or explicit coercion. I'm open to another term that might better describe what I'm talking about, if you'd like to suggest one.
I’d call it abuse or sexual assault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo
Two points here. Yes, the adult could manipulate a young one. That is very true. However, looking at it from the other side, young ones know how to manipulate the adults too. They can do so not only in a sexual sense. How many teens manipulate their parents, deceived them, and get do what they want by doing so?
It is important to be aware of that and not only assume that the young teen is so innocent every time.
I’m absolutely stunned/speechless as to this mentality. We aren’t speaking to a teen manipulating their parents for an iPhone or a car. There are not ‘two sides’ to an adult having (or attempting to pursue) sex with a teen.
I’m absolutely stunned/speechless as to this mentality. We aren’t speaking to a teen manipulating their parents for an iPhone or a car. There are not ‘two sides’ to an adult having (or attempting to pursue) sex with a teen.
I am bringing another angle to this issue, not to promote or agree with it. There are two sides whether you want to admit it or not. That does not mean I am excusing such relationships. You are making the same mistake many people do of assuming that stating a fact means agreeing with it. What to do? Assume that that is my mentality? I have dealt with these situations very often because I have volunteered a few years as advocate on behalf of victims of sexual assault and rape in the Army and in the community. A few cases that seem so clear ended up smear and false accusations by very smart teens.
In a previous post I mentioned two books from the American Psychological Association that present how minors and adults get involved in such types of relationships.
Also, read carefully on the context around when I mentioned how teens manipulate parents also because they are good at doing so in many other areas too.
I am bringing another angle to this issue, not to promote or agree with it. There are two sides whether you want to admit it or not. That does not mean I am excusing such relationships.
I call a spade a spade relative to this subject. I see the discussion, in and of itself, as exploitative - as if teens are somehow manipulative/responsible for an adult’s unhealthy i.e. ‘sick’ pursuit of them sexually. It’s absolutely ludicrous, particularly relative to (the concept of) consent, as is calling it a relationship. There are some child molesters who actually believe the kid/teen ‘wanted it’ as well, or they considered it a ‘relationship’.
Relative to a Psychology Forum, the focus should be on the adult who has placed himself/herself in the situation. Whether it’s an issue of legality or not, the onus is on the adult.
Last edited by CorporateCowboy; 07-26-2022 at 10:12 AM..
Reason: added sentence
And seriously, we consider the line drawn at 18 to be this clear cut thing, like on one side you are a "child" and the other you are an "adult"... Which of course isn't how these things work. I've known young adults who are not as smart or savvy as plenty of younger (15/16ish) teens. I have known teens of that age who could easily wrap some 20+ year old guys around their little finger. And while I think it's right that we teach young people that once they become an adult, they need to be the responsible one and say NO to any such opportunity, just walk away from it... Like, there is a reality that is there no matter how much we might want to deny it with our rigid ethics and laws, and in that reality, no, the teen is not always some doe-eyed innocent who was tricked and played and didn't know what was happening.
At least to a point.
That doesn't shift legal culpability. It doesn't excuse the adult. It just acknowledges a basic truth.
I mean, a lot of people also view children of all ages as these angelic, perfect beings, incapable of anything bad, like cruelty or sexuality or whatever, unless/until a big, bad, tainted ADULT teaches them the bad stuff....I don't agree with that either. Left to their own devices, children are still humans. And there is some natural impulse in some set of humanity that will predispose even a child to certain behaviors. Any pediatrician will tell you that some small children discover that touching their own bodies feels good and they just do that without ever having been taught. And then the adults in that kid's life have to try and teach them either not to do it, or at least not to do it in public and around others! Does that excuse molestation somehow? HELL NO, absolutely not!!
It's just that things are not always as black and white as one may wish.
Two points here. Yes, the adult could manipulate a young one. That is very true. However, looking at it from the other side, young ones know how to manipulate the adults too. They can do so not only in a sexual sense. How many teens manipulate their parents, deceived them, and get do what they want by doing so?
It is important to be aware of that and not only assume that the young teen is so innocent every time.
So let us admit that often enough young one wants to have sex with adults and manipulate things to do so. Even a 15-year-old today is so much savvy in sexual matters that let us say of one in the 1950s. I know that because I lived during that time.
How many young teens have accused an adult after willingly manipulated and had sex with that person? That is not uncommon. So, we need to pay a very close attention to that part. Very often, the teen gets no punishment if later it was found how this individual made a false accusation. It is important to see each case in its entirety. Sometimes they have made false accusations or made it look so differently sexual encounters, ruined individuals' lives, and then go on like nothing after the truth is exposed.
So don't only think that teens are so innocent. Keep that in mind. We must not allow emotions to override objectivity so we can assess each case fairly.
On the second point, I agree that we need to make it an effort to stop adults from manipulating young teens because we also know that is true. The OP brought up a good point of wanting to know the harm done in cases of this type. Those adults that did so deserve a harsh punishment in my opinion. Because of their age they must have a much higher level of punishment that if a teen willingly manipulated an adult.
You have a great day.
elamigo
When I was 24, my friend's little sister was 15 and we all went to Manhattan Beach with her, my friend, my friends girlfriend and myself. His little sister was flirting with me. She was jumping on my back and trying to wrestle with me at the beach and at lunch she was trying to sit on lap and steal my french fries.
Was she interested in flirting with me? Yes. Was there an element of sexual tension between us that she was actively trying to encourage yes? But at 15, people are trying to stretch their wings too. She was 15 and I was 24. Even if she did want to have sex with me, I was the responsible adult here. At 15, you can and will start stuff you aren't ready to finish. At 15, the idea of sex might be more appealing than the reality of what you are actually getting yourself into. I think a line does need to be drawn somewhere. There was a huge life experience gap here. There was also a pretty large power imbalance here too.
Maybe the age of consent should be 21, maybe it should be 18, maybe it should be 16. But in principle I think that there is some age where we say some people are too old for you to date and we as a society need to protect you from that and I am fine with 18 being that age.
Yes kids can be manipulative. But kids are also kids. They also may be biting off more than they can chew. My friends little sister may have wanted to get some attention from me. But that doesn't mean that she was actually ready for having sex with me either. Sometimes you need to protect people from their own bad judgment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
And seriously, we consider the line drawn at 18 to be this clear cut thing, like on one side you are a "child" and the other you are an "adult"... Which of course isn't how these things work. I've known young adults who are not as smart or savvy as plenty of younger (15/16ish) teens. I have known teens of that age who could easily wrap some 20+ year old guys around their little finger. And while I think it's right that we teach young people that once they become an adult, they need to be the responsible one and say NO to any such opportunity, just walk away from it... Like, there is a reality that is there no matter how much we might want to deny it with our rigid ethics and laws, and in that reality, no, the teen is not always some doe-eyed innocent who was tricked and played and didn't know what was happening.
At least to a point.
That doesn't shift legal culpability. It doesn't excuse the adult. It just acknowledges a basic truth.
I mean, a lot of people also view children of all ages as these angelic, perfect beings, incapable of anything bad, like cruelty or sexuality or whatever, unless/until a big, bad, tainted ADULT teaches them the bad stuff....I don't agree with that either. Left to their own devices, children are still humans. And there is some natural impulse in some set of humanity that will predispose even a child to certain behaviors. Any pediatrician will tell you that some small children discover that touching their own bodies feels good and they just do that without ever having been taught. And then the adults in that kid's life have to try and teach them either not to do it, or at least not to do it in public and around others! Does that excuse molestation somehow? HELL NO, absolutely not!!
It's just that things are not always as black and white as one may wish.
But the other side of this is motivated reasoning. In every 'me too' trial, the guy's standard defense was this was all consentual sex between two people.
If you are attracted to someone you can rationalize your behavior as she wanted it, even if she didn't. Kids are also much easier to manipulate. Think of the power imbalance, the older the guy gets.
That is why statutory rape laws are strict liability affairs and the victim's consent doesn't matter and I would argue why it shouldn't matter.
And seriously, we consider the line drawn at 18 to be this clear cut thing, like on one side you are a "child" and the other you are an "adult"... Which of course isn't how these things work. I've known young adults who are not as smart or savvy as plenty of younger (15/16ish) teens. I have known teens of that age who could easily wrap some 20+ year old guys around their little finger.
A 15 year old who thinks it's a good idea to start a relationship with a 20+ year old is NOT smart or savvy, at least not about this part of life. If anything, they're displaying the immature poor impulse control and lack of foresight that characterizes adolescence and makes it wrong for an adult to have sex with someone that much younger. For one thing, if the concept "I'm going to get my boyfriend arrested" isn't enough to give them pause, they're either monsters, in which case it's a terrible idea to have sex with them, or give no thought to consequences, in which case it's also a terrible idea to have sex with them.
If that 15/16 year old who has decided to have sex were actually savvy, they would choose a less risky option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelato
Was she interested in flirting with me? Yes. Was there an element of sexual tension between us that she was actively trying to encourage yes? But at 15, people are trying to stretch their wings too. She was 15 and I was 24. Even if she did want to have sex with me, I was the responsible adult here. At 15, you can and will start stuff you aren't ready to finish. At 15, the idea of sex might be more appealing than the reality of what you are actually getting yourself into. I think a line does need to be drawn somewhere. There was a huge life experience gap here. There was also a pretty large power imbalance here too.
Exactly this. A ten year old who REALLY wants to drive a car doesn't get to drive a car. If you gave them your car keys and said "go have a joyride around town," that would be criminal. It's the job of the adult to make the mature choice despite the desires and requests of the kid.
Is anyone telling young girls/women that they might consider NOT making a kissy face or sticking their tongue out suggestively for every picture they put on the innerwebs for the entire world to see?
Are you saying that behavior excuses sexual attention from adults? Cause...it's hard for me to wrap my head around seeing a teen's photo of making a kissy face, and thinking "She wants me to bang her."
A 15 year old who thinks it's a good idea to start a relationship with a 20+ year old is NOT smart or savvy, at least not about this part of life. If anything, they're displaying the immature poor impulse control and lack of foresight that characterizes adolescence and makes it wrong for an adult to have sex with someone that much younger. For one thing, if the concept "I'm going to get my boyfriend arrested" isn't enough to give them pause, they're either monsters, in which case it's a terrible idea to have sex with them, or give no thought to consequences, in which case it's also a terrible idea to have sex with them.
If that 15/16 year old who has decided to have sex were actually savvy, they would choose a less risky option.
Exactly this. A ten year old who REALLY wants to drive a car doesn't get to drive a car. If you gave them your car keys and said "go have a joyride around town," that would be criminal. It's the job of the adult to make the mature choice despite the desires and requests of the kid.
To me...and I really don't want to re-write things I've already said about my own life experience all over again here... points to the way that many people inextricably tie together sex and relationships.
At 15-16, I was ready to have sex. I was getting tested for STIs every 3 months per an agreement my Mom and I made and I was on the pill. Whether I had sex (just sex) with another 16 year old, or a 26 year old, made pretty much no difference, if we are considering ONLY the sex itself in a vacuum.
The problem was the ~relationship~. Another 16 year old kinda knew that we weren't gonna be forever. Or they were resilient enough to deal with a broken heart if we broke up. There was a level of seriousness that just wasn't there. I was ready to consent to sex, but not marriage, or a lifelong commitment or having children.
Though pregnancy was just as possible with one sort as the other and the older one would have been more able to provide if it had come to that. But precautions were in place and working, so it did not.
Thing is, most folks look at sex as being only OK, only justifiable, only acceptable, in context of lifelong pairbonding and family making. I did not see it that way at 14, 16, 18 or now at 43. The only extra "risk" I felt was going on with a boyfriend in his 20s (to me at least) was that in general the adult guys would get it in their heads that we might become a forever kind of an item. And then I had to kick them to the curb while shaking my head and wondering why they'd assume such a ridiculous thing about someone who was a teenager in high school. Forever? What does that even mean to someone that age? Absurd!
I just don't see the act of having sex as this monumental, earth shaking, life changing affair. As though sex with any one of my partners I had as a teen, or even all of them cumulatively, changed me in some big and serious way. Let alone a negative way. Sorry, but the wand just ain't so magical as all that. The fact that a few of them were adults did not cause some kind of increased damage. They didn't trick or coerce me into it. They did not have to.
And one of them I was definitely and absolutely manipulating, as I've mentioned, he was manager of a favorite pizza place in the mall. He had his employees giving me free food, which I'd then take and share with my friends, and at least one and possibly two or three of those exact same friends were high school boys I was also having sex with when I felt like it. I didn't tell that guy because I didn't assume it was his business, and it came absolutely out of nowhere to me when he asked me to enter an extended engagement with him. I broke up with him on the spot. I never loved him at all.
As for the risk that these older guys could have gone to jail...I guess, if anybody had seen fit to report it, sure. No one was gonna do that, though. Not then anyways. But that wasn't my problem, as far as I was concerned. If they were stupid enough to take that risk then...whatever.
Which is why I say that although I don't accept wholesale the notion that underage teens are always innocent and being corrupted by bad, bad sophisticated and savvy adults for their precious innocence and oh, being damaged by sex somehow with an older person (in some way they wouldn't with someone their age for some reason?)... I still judge adults who do this because if nothing else they are being STUPID.
I find it pretty impossible to respect stupid.
But lust makes idiots out of a lot of people. For what it's worth, I see American guys who think that certain foreign women will come here and be perfect docile fantasy women...also stupid. I'm not mad about it. But I feel sorry for those guys. I know how it can and often does go wrong. There are lots of people who allow others to use them, and the using is not always going in the obvious direction that one might assume. But it's always just...a bad idea. Even in cases where I may not agree that it's some sort of an evil one.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
