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did you leave a handkerchief with a map on it that seems pizza-related?
do you think I'll do better playing dominos on cheese than on pasta?
and why did Obama spend $65k in taxpayer money flying in pizza/hot dogs to the White House [illegal/impossible/ridiculous] for a private party?
Who's gullible again? Who's short on 'rational credibiility'?
Not to get personal, but you did ask...
You're also the poster who stated that he does not believe that Sandy Hook actually happened.
I wonder how many relationships with friends or family you have lost over this stuff.
And you know what really kinda sucks about it? Once you go THERE...once or twice...once you plant your flag on Crackpot Island... Even if you actually find something that has legitimate standing in reality, once you've blown your "rational credibility" and everyone believes you feed eagerly at the trough of paranoid nonsense, it matters not if sometimes you get it right.
Thing is, in these cases I'm always reminded of the rhetorical query, "Is it better to be happy, or to be right?"
And you'll insist that you're right a lot more than you truly are and may pay for it with your happiness.
The problem with conspiracy theories is that it is a firehose of BS. No one will ever have the time to go through all of the claims one at a time, and debunk them. Someone went to the pizza parlor and proved it had no basement, but that will mean nothing to the adherents of the conspiracy, just spin up some more claims...it was never about evidence, only about theories.
And the fact that governments have hidden things does not then mean that every possible allegation that can be dreamed up by anyone ever, must always be true.
Problem is, even if you're right...what are you gonna do about it? No really? You think you're gonna cleanse the world of evil somehow? (I mean, setting aside a certain con artist's ability to harness the delusions for his own benefit)... Everybody wants to be some kind of a hero, but feeling special because you "know things" doesn't actually make you one.
Oh easy. Humans love to receive good things. If a salesman finds out what the person really desires, they could easy con them and/or be a good salesman.
Some people are very naive and easily tricked. We need to learn more wisdom about daily things.
However, even the smartest people can be tricked. i fell for a trick email that tests us to see if we can recognize a spam email. I was not at my brightest the other day and i clicked on it. The reply was "you have now clicked on a phishing scam. so even i got tricked, but i was not so alert and it looked real.
As to conspiracy theories, there is something called a confirmation bias. Which can be very strong. It works like this - if you dislike someone, you can always group together a news story that has partial truths and downright lies and you can take someone's words out of context and splice it together and make a convincing story. if the listener tends to hate that person, they will believe it is true. So again, do your own research.
I wonder how many relationships with friends or family you have lost over this stuff.
Precisely zero. I choose my friends carefully and my family, while not necessarily in agreement (a minority are/kind of are, a majority aren't), are open-minded and don't 'cancel' a life-long, irreplaceable bond over what may be a temporary disagreement. The mark of an educated mind is to entertain an idea without accepting it; the mark of a zealot is to get sngry and/or refuse to hear the idea out. And while most/all have come to know my positions, I don't bring it up often or force it down their throats.
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And you know what really kinda sucks about it? Once you go THERE...once or twice...once you plant your flag on Crackpot Island... Even if you actually find something that has legitimate standing in reality, once you've blown your "rational credibility" and everyone believes you feed eagerly at the trough of paranoid nonsense, it matters not if sometimes you get it right.
In terms of the popular discourse long-term, those who mind don't matter. People who don't get it can't be reached until they do the work and decide to get it. I've actively, vehemently opposed most theories I accept today. Because truth is important to me; I don't opt out to self-soothe. The masses have always, throughout all of history, been woefully, fundamentally clueless about major aspects of their reality, and they have always persecuted, dismissed, and ridiculed those who challenged their beliefs. Today is absolutely no different; we didn't suddenly become a society of enlightened geniuses.
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Thing is, in these cases I'm always reminded of the rhetorical query, "Is it better to be happy, or to be right?"
And you'll insist that you're right a lot more than you truly are and may pay for it with your happiness.
If one can, it's better to fight for what's right than take Soma and live a numbed, low-meaning, inauthentic existence. Life is a mix of pain and pleasure, work and comfort, and I'm not a vacuous hedonist who elevates 'happiness' (whatever that means) above all else.
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The problem with conspiracy theories is that it is a firehose of BS. No one will ever have the time to go through all of the claims one at a time, and debunk them. Someone went to the pizza parlor and proved it had no basement, but that will mean nothing to the adherents of the conspiracy, just spin up some more claims...it was never about evidence, only about theories.
First of all, neither you nor SunGrins has debunked the coded language above (just a small sampling of what exists). And it had a basement. Interview with Doug Rule in Metro Weekly, 4/16/2015, 'James Alefantis: From Scratch' (published 1.5 years prior to 'Pizzagate'):
"Because a lot of restaurants will open a can and put it on. Like our sauce — we harvest a whole crop of organic tomatoes — 10 tons of tomatoes every year. Can them all, store them in the basement, have like a harvest party when it gets loaded in."
The restaurant appears to have used the basement of a directly adjacent address that was part of its premises. Alefantis owns a restaurant called Buck's Fishing and Camping that is immediately adjacent to Comet. Alefantis posted a dozen-odd pictures of said basement on his now-deleted Instagram account, including pictures of trenches being jackhammered and dug out (hashtag 'working overtime'), and a separate post of small coffins being created, another of a large freezer with hashtag 'kill room, clean it when you're done,' among many others; feel free to verify for yourself.
As for your other point, unless you have a state-/intel-controlled media like we have, the 'fire hose' effect is inevitable. Skilled researchers can weed out the invalid evidence/claims.
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And the fact that governments have hidden things does not then mean that every possible allegation that can be dreamed up by anyone ever, must always be true.
No one said that to be the case. That is the stuff of cheap disinfo/strawman attacks.
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Problem is, even if you're right...what are you gonna do about it? No really? You think you're gonna cleanse the world of evil somehow? (I mean, setting aside a certain con artist's ability to harness the delusions for his own benefit)... Everybody wants to be some kind of a hero, but feeling special because you "know things" doesn't actually make you one.
Yeah, so I guess this is you opting out; good luck with that. We each control our own molecule and affect those who come into contact with us; cleansing the whole world is no individual's responsibility. I choose not to accept and spread lies with my being, you can do what you want with yours.
Last edited by PJSaturn; 08-01-2022 at 09:35 PM..
Reason: Trolling.
Playtime and articles aside. I have come to believe that people embrace conspiracies because thinking there is something outside ourselves is responsible for our misfortune is better than facing the fact that we are where we are in life because of our own choices. End of story.
Maybe it depends on what a group has to gain how willing they are to believe in what might be preventing it
How about systemic racism? It that a conspiracy? Does every institution in the United Sates have a systemized plan to discriminate against people of color in disregard of the law? There certainly were times in the past when that appeared to be true.
I've heard that propounded simply on evidence of individual cases and yet a large number of citizens believe it's true today. If it is true that means our government continues to be a selective threat to its citizens. Would you be a nut if you believed that?
That is a rhetorical question and example of a believable conspiracy, I think. It's not worth discussing specifically because it would probably lead to closure of the thread.
Perhaps it all depends on which foot is wearing the shoe?
^^^ There are currently still pretty obvious cases of institutional racism. For example, the way SEPTA in the Philly area is structured, there are representatives from different counties making decisions for the transit system that serves different demographics in other counties. So a suburban extension gets funding instead of more needed improvements in Philadelphia proper where there are many more minority race riders ? Idk something like that
I think it’s too bad that there is such hostility towards the idea of researching or discussing conspiracies these days, and it is in part because of media-induced amnesia to get everyone to forget about all the nasty stuff Edward Snowden released. Like, I thought we were in a good place at that time, and the public would finally have some distrust of authority and get more curious and think and research for themselves like I had been doing for years. That behavior is often quickly dismissed now. There is a strong anti-intellectual attitude since 2019. I also think the idea of conspiracy was trivialized by the onslaught of “Epstein didn’t kill himself†memes
I believe that no small part of an individual's willingness to indulge the possibility that a conspiracy is at work, depends upon their perception of their fellow man's willingness to be either dishonest or deceptive. And personally, I've always felt it wise to never underestimate anyone in that particular regard.
Other factors come into play as well, such as perception that the subject matter is of a critical nature , combined with a dearth of pertinent facts and any perception that perceived authority is being less than forthright with explanation.
In such a void, I don't think it is at all unusual that people might speculate, sometimes correctly, sometimes not.
Question for the conspiracy theory critics: I'm sure you are aware of recent efforts to press for transparency in government. Would you consider a concerted effort by an authority determined to be less than transparent....to itself be a "conspiracy"?
When you have an authority believing itself to be entitled to deceptive practices, you are sure to cultivate a fair share of skeptics. And dismissing those skeptics as "kooks" is (IMO) just a tad too convenient.
I believe that no small part of an individual's willingness to indulge the possibility that a conspiracy is at work, depends upon their perception of their fellow man's willingness to be either dishonest or deceptive. And personally, I've always felt it wise to never underestimate anyone in that particular regard.
Other factors come into play as well, such as perception that the subject matter is of a critical nature , combined with a dearth of pertinent facts and any perception that perceived authority is being less than forthright with explanation.
In such a void, I don't think it is at all unusual that people might speculate, sometimes correctly, sometimes not.
Question for the conspiracy theory critics: I'm sure you are aware of recent efforts to press for transparency in government. Would you consider a concerted effort by an authority to be less than transparent....to itself be a "conspiracy"?
When you have an authority believing itself to be entitled to deceptive practices, you are sure to cultivate a fair share of skeptics. And dismissing those skeptics as "kooks" is (IMO) just a tad too convenient.
Regarding government transparency, it depends on the rationale.
For national security reasons? I get that. To try and avoid tainting a trial or jury or tipping off criminals who are being investigated, by not broadcasting every action in some legal process? I get that, too. I don't believe that EVERY. SINGLE. THING. needs to be on blast to the public.
But.
When it's obvious that things are being done secretly because there would be a moral outcry by a betrayed populace if we all knew what was really going on? Like some of the secret medical experiments done on people or starting wars in other countries while lying/propagandizing the reasons...things that are probably too common but are morally repugnant and horrific to most people...
Like there is a difference between necessarily operational security (which is usually temporary and related to a situation that is ongoing and in progress) versus a coverup. And yes, we have found out decades later about things our government has done that were covered up for a long time and that were morally repugnant, dare I say evil. This kind of thing is destructive to the faith of the people in the government that we supposedly have consented to have. It encourages people to believe the worst of the government with or without any evidence.
So while I have pushed back on some of the conspiracy folks and always would, I am not actually saying that I believe them to be wrong-in-full. It's just that without far more compelling evidence than what they ever have to offer, I will never believe nor disbelieve anything that they are saying.
I am comfortable with "I don't know." Some people are not. It's like religion. I don't need to stand here and say that I know where we go when we die because I read it in a book or was taught it in a church. I do not believe, or disbelieve in God. I don't know and until I have far more solid evidence I will not take it on faith. Nothing that I have been presented with thus far, has met the bar for evidence to me.
And some website run by who-knows-whom making claims about "This politician is photographed smiling at that celebrity, and the digits of his father's birthday add up to 666, and a child in his cousin's hometown disappeared in 1958 and was never found...THINK ABOUT IT!" to establish as evidence of a global cannibalistic pedo ring. And I will go a step further and say that the more these things echo propaganda that was used to justify attempts at genocide against ethnic groups, and other kinds of "demonize the other and rile popular hatred" campaigns...the more skeptical I will be.
I find it VASTLY more likely that claims and lies are being made to turn people against some group, and the existence of a guilty few does not establish for me proof of something much bigger...which is what conspiracy theories are always about. Like it's never the one core provable thing, it's always this vast, huge, "everything connected" situation... And I have not found reality to be that way. And sometimes, a coincidence IS a coincidence. Life is full of them.
But. People will believe whatever they want. Ain't nobody stoppin' ya.
I believe that no small part of an individual's willingness to indulge the possibility that a conspiracy is at work, depends upon their perception of their fellow man's willingness to be either dishonest or deceptive. And personally, I've always felt it wise to never underestimate anyone in that particular regard.
Other factors come into play as well, such as perception that the subject matter is of a critical nature , combined with a dearth of pertinent facts and any perception that perceived authority is being less than forthright with explanation.
In such a void, I don't think it is at all unusual that people might speculate, sometimes correctly, sometimes not.
Question for the conspiracy theory critics: I'm sure you are aware of recent efforts to press for transparency in government. Would you consider a concerted effort by an authority determined to be less than transparent....to itself be a "conspiracy"?
When you have an authority believing itself to be entitled to deceptive practices, you are sure to cultivate a fair share of skeptics. And dismissing those skeptics as "kooks" is (IMO) just a tad too convenient.
And its kind of amusing that the people who wrote the OP's article undoubtedly, from their tone, believed in a lot of the recently disproven conspiracy theories themselves.
Regarding government transparency, it depends on the rationale.
For national security reasons? I get that. To try and avoid tainting a trial or jury or tipping off criminals who are being investigated, by not broadcasting every action in some legal process? I get that, too.
I'll confess this was kind of a set up, because if I tried to squeeze it all into a single post, it would have been unwieldy long. So, I was hoping someone might come along and observe as you have...so "thanks"
When you have this authoritative entity that "compartmentalizes" knowledge as a basic rule of order.....you spawn a culture of "knowledge entitlement". Day in, day out, year after year...just more of the same.
Then suppose something out of the ordinary happens....something with unfortunate consequences. If the ingrained culture is one where "need to know" is the procedural norm... I propose that not only is there a disincentive to divulge information that might be unpopular, even potentially damaging....but a formidable ethical dilemma might arise pertaining to disclosure.
And, I believe the conspiracy theorists might (finding themselves confronted with non cooperative authority) be inclined to suspect the worst where ethics are a matter of interpretation.
Last edited by Always Needmore; 08-01-2022 at 12:14 PM..
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