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Mmhm. Not politics. Accusations that WCPSS board is literally, intentionally sabotaging the academic performance of high achievers. Not a bad faith argument at all.
Sure, there's some straight out sociopaths in government, don't have to look further than the White House to see that, but those sociopaths usually make it there based on some kind of intelligence, or at least raw cunning. You think the WCPSS board is cackling maniacally as they plot to destroy the academic careers of their best students? That they'd do so without a care for their political positions if the kids of the multi-degree Type A Triangle moms and dads stop getting in to the MITs, Harvards, Berkeleys and Stanfords of the world?
Ratchet down the partisan rhetoric if you want claims of "not politics" to be believable. Any day now...
I’ll focus on your previous post mostly, but will note you basically implored people to keep partisan politics out of the discussion of MVP...by explicitly amping up the politics of the debate/discussion.
You previously said something about “right wing talking points” drive the Anti Common Core discussion...you serious Clark?
I too work in tech; MarTech, BI database design, SAS models, AI, multiple code languages...et al...please explain how Common core is a benefit to anything in real world space?
I took advanced Math two years into college; although I admittedly didn’t go to Math Competitions like you did. Nevertheless, I use nothing but Econometrics/Stats and advanced Algebra in my career.
Common Core is why H1-B types will continue to steal your and my kids lunches in the technology space. They can be paid 80 cents on the dollar and don’t need to doodle out the answer to their math problem.
And before you go on to another label for someone disagreeing with you, I’ll apply my own.
Liberal Developer nerd who thinks Common Core/MVP is an effing joke.
I’ll focus on your previous post mostly, but will note you basically implored people to keep partisan politics out of the discussion of MVP...by explicitly amping up the politics of the debate/discussion.
You previously said something about “right wing talking points” drive the Anti Common Core discussion...you serious Clark?
I too work in tech; MarTech, BI database design, SAS models, AI, multiple code languages...et al...please explain how Common core is a benefit to anything in real world space?
I took advanced Math two years into college; although I admittedly didn’t go to Math Competitions like you did. Nevertheless, I use nothing but Econometrics/Stats and advanced Algebra in my career.
Common Core is why H1-B types will continue to steal your and my kids lunches in the technology space. They can be paid 80 cents on the dollar and don’t need to doodle out the answer to their math problem.
And before you go on to another label for someone disagreeing with you, I’ll apply my own.
Liberal Developer nerd who thinks Common Core/MVP is an effing joke.
I like your style GVoR.
From,
Conservative musician creative type who also thinks Common Core/MVP is an effing joke.
What _specifically_ about Common Core is a problem? And don't just repeat something abstract about "doodling", what specifically does it leave kids unable to do? Things like the ten-frames and number lines are great tools for getting kids truly fluent with numbers, how they can be composed and decomposed, how the decimal system works, how we do basic math in our heads. It's about instilling the intuitive feel for what associativity and commutativity means, rather than just leaving it as some rote dictionary definition. But all this is about leading up to or supplementing traditional math skills. And as I said before, a lot of it looks like the tricks and shortcuts I picked up on my own or gleaned from other mathlete nerds. Everything I've seen so far in common core still involves things like memorizing multiplication tables, the long division algorithm, etc. But the other stuff provides the context to make those facts and processes more meaningful. I've never seen anyone of near adult age have to doodle out their math problems; I suspect anyone who did would probably have been left by the purely traditional curriculum unable to solve a math problem at all. The H1-B thing is a misdirection; it's the 80 cents (or less) on the dollar (and the neo-identured servitude) that drives that in today's short-term-gains-bonus-golden-parachute corporate environment. Skills advantage is mythical.
But my biggest concern with this ongoing MVP drama is how similar it looks to the 2009 election. Then, there was the bus issue. There were problems. Motivation was sound, in practice there were some frustrations. But the campaign to remake the board was never about fixing the problems. It was about pouring money and outside organization into methodically stoking and amplifying those frustrations, turning it into a wedge issue to ramp up turnout on their side and sway independents by shifting the discourse with manufactured outrage. The diversity policies had never been partisan before, they were supported by Democrats and some staunch Republicans. But amping up the outrage worked, a new board took over. Of course, they revealed their regressive colors almost immediately, and Wake voters ousted them a couple years later. MVP seems like a rerun. Sure, it's a new program. Undoubtedly there are teething issues. But the anti-MVP side's burn-it-to-the-ground antics, the accusations of fraud against WCPSS, accusations that the board is hoping MVP drags down high achievers to close the gap, claims that all the teachers secretly agree that MVP is terrible (teachers brave enough to stage multiple huge protests against Mark Johnson's and the legislature's education negligence, but somehow are too shy to speak up publicly about this?), none of that looks like good faith attempts to fix problems.
What _specifically_ about Common Core is a problem? And don't just repeat something abstract about "doodling", what specifically does it leave kids unable to do? Things like the ten-frames and number lines are great tools for getting kids truly fluent with numbers, how they can be composed and decomposed, how the decimal system works, how we do basic math in our heads. It's about instilling the intuitive feel for what associativity and commutativity means, rather than just leaving it as some rote dictionary definition. But all this is about leading up to or supplementing traditional math skills. And as I said before, a lot of it looks like the tricks and shortcuts I picked up on my own or gleaned from other mathlete nerds. Everything I've seen so far in common core still involves things like memorizing multiplication tables, the long division algorithm, etc. But the other stuff provides the context to make those facts and processes more meaningful. I've never seen anyone of near adult age have to doodle out their math problems; I suspect anyone who did would probably have been left by the purely traditional curriculum unable to solve a math problem at all. The H1-B thing is a misdirection; it's the 80 cents (or less) on the dollar (and the neo-identured servitude) that drives that in today's short-term-gains-bonus-golden-parachute corporate environment. Skills advantage is mythical.
But my biggest concern with this ongoing MVP drama is how similar it looks to the 2009 election. Then, there was the bus issue. There were problems. Motivation was sound, in practice there were some frustrations. But the campaign to remake the board was never about fixing the problems. It was about pouring money and outside organization into methodically stoking and amplifying those frustrations, turning it into a wedge issue to ramp up turnout on their side and sway independents by shifting the discourse with manufactured outrage. The diversity policies had never been partisan before, they were supported by Democrats and some staunch Republicans. But amping up the outrage worked, a new board took over. Of course, they revealed their regressive colors almost immediately, and Wake voters ousted them a couple years later. MVP seems like a rerun. Sure, it's a new program. Undoubtedly there are teething issues. But the anti-MVP side's burn-it-to-the-ground antics, the accusations of fraud against WCPSS, accusations that the board is hoping MVP drags down high achievers to close the gap, claims that all the teachers secretly agree that MVP is terrible (teachers brave enough to stage multiple huge protests against Mark Johnson's and the legislature's education negligence, but somehow are too shy to speak up publicly about this?), none of that looks like good faith attempts to fix problems.
A couple of thoughts.
1. The H1-B skill advantage is not a myth. Every tech job I have had has had a majority of employees who are H1-Bs. I’ve worked IT at a bank, as a Solution Architect at at Marketing Services firm and now as a Consultant with one of the big four Consulting Firms. I can assure you each one of those firms would rather not sponsor anyone. Period. Hard stop. Sponsorship comes with a whole slew of headaches most companies would rather avoid completely. However when you spend a year looking for a qualified SA and there just aren’t any (because of the “mythological” skill gap) here we are.
How does common core close that gap?
2. I spent grades 6-12 at an International HS in Jakarta Indonesia. I took a full AP/IB class load through HS just because. During the years I was there (can’t speak for it now) it was the number 2 HS in the world. If the goal of primary school is to get you ready for University/College (which I agree we could have a separate convo on that pathway) then they achieved that in spades. I literally went to a school that the developers of Common Core would say “we need to close the gap with them”.
The gap wasn’t the method of facilitating (although admittedly my HS functioned more like a college than a typical American HS in terms of how classes were run) the gap is ensuring the facilitation (I.e the soft skill presentation) is relatable to the science (algebra/geometry/trig etc)
3. To me there in lines the issue with Common Come/MVP. You built a system to “close the gap” using a singular vehicle to help improve math understanding. From my seat Common Core would be more effective if you broke it out as “Math 1 - Algebra Methods” and then “Math 1 - Algebraic Theory”
One to teach the nuts and bolts of doing arithmetic/ algebra/geo/trig et al and the supplemental class on what the student is actually doing when they do the apply the type of math to solve the problem.
Common Core isn’t that. It’s all in one, in many cases taught by people who can’t teach the “theory” part of it. So the end result is you get a system of education that is meant to bring achievement up but is conducted in a manner that ends up hurting the kids because the offering is half baked.
Which then of course puts them further behind in the gap, causes frustration and a lack of interest in the subject and boom they’re off studying the Classics “at the Harvard’s, the Berkeleys and Stanfords” rather than studying a STEM major because they were completely frustrated by the manner in which even basic math was presented to them. Which comes back to that “mythological” skill gap in IT job markets.
In a future where automation replaces people in many jobs, STEM skills will be in higher need to “manage the machines”. It’s hard to do that if your area of expertise is Tess of the Dubervilles
Which then of course puts them further behind in the gap, causes frustration and a lack of interest in the subject and boom they’re off studying the Classics “at the Harvard’s, the Berkeleys and Stanfords” rather than studying a STEM major because they were completely frustrated by the manner in which even basic math was presented to them. Which comes back to that “mythological” skill gap in IT job markets.
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Not to mention they didn't learn anything in their high school math classes, so they can't get into any worthwhile STEM college program anyway. My kid wasn't going in to a STEM field anyway, I just need her to get through the next 3 years of math classes without too much damage to her GPA. But for other kids who wanted a career like that, this curriculum is unbelievably hurtful in many ways - making them hate math AND taking away their ability to get into a STEM program in college. I didn't think a school board could get worse than what was in place when we moved here but I was wrong. They have an agenda, and it's definitely not giving all kids the best education they can get. #everychildeveryday is a complete joke of a hashtag at WCPSS.
Not to mention they didn't learn anything in their high school math classes, so they can't get into any worthwhile STEM college program anyway. My kid wasn't going in to a STEM field anyway, I just need her to get through the next 3 years of math classes without too much damage to her GPA. But for other kids who wanted a career like that, this curriculum is unbelievably hurtful in many ways - making them hate math AND taking away their ability to get into a STEM program in college. I didn't think a school board could get worse than what was in place when we moved here but I was wrong. They have an agenda, and it's definitely not giving all kids the best education they can get. #everychildeveryday is a complete joke of a hashtag at WCPSS.
Yes that is the other side of the impact coin. Either frustrating the kid out of STEM or you teach it in such a way that even "basic" math was missed, leaving the kid woefully unprepared later.
I readily admit STEM isn't for everyone, nor should it be. However I am saddened by our collective "fear" and "disregard" of it.
I think school boards in general have lost the forest through the trees when it comes to standardization/achievement to the mean approach.
There are always going to be people who are better at Subject A and not as good at Subject B. That's OK! I personally was good at Math, History, Geography, and Chemistry. I sucked in Biology, Physics and to a lesser extent English.
The fitting all pegs into a single box is a failed approach in theory and even more so in real world application and outcomes. What good is your standardization if it has negative value propositions to a portion of your audience?
I realize you can't over specialize education due to the costs associated and our society is largely cost prohibitive to damn near everything (right or wrong). But it has always been my position that standardization should be applied at the outcome level. "By Grade X, you should know how to do Y" rather than the approach level "we will teach everyone the same to understand Y".
Admittedly, that could have been the goal of Common Core (however everything I have read about Common Core it was always geared toward outcome standardization, just through a new way of teaching!). But when huge amount of people (unfortunately for Redbird), from all parts of the political spectrum, say "this isn't working toward the outcomes it claims to want to achieve" you can't claim its partisan politics.
If a model is built and it predicts X will happen in 2 years....and you get 2 years down the line and X didn't happen.....that doesn't mean people begrudging your model are partisan tribal sheep....it means your model was wrong.
Can't rep you again GVoR. I think what we all want for our kids is curiosity and love of learning. That ain't happening here anymore. And as I said before it's not just the math. They've adopted an ELA curriculum that sucks just as bad for the English/history/humanities crowd. No leeway on how to teach it. Why do they think people went into teaching? They want to teach, they don't want to be robots.
I have not read EVERY post on this thread, but I have a couple of questions.
1. Which schools in Wake County are impacted by MVP math? Are Charters/Magnets/Early College alike all affected?
2. I have very little experience with the public school system, as we homeschooled for many years, and the only kids we have that went to public school, did so in their junior and senior year, and we have one in a charter school for middle school. With that said, I'm just trying to understand how many schools this affects as we look towards high school. Also, how long do you think Wake County will sit on this with so much opposition from parents?
it's affected certain school more than others, depending on how it was implemented. That implementation came at the direction of each principal, apparently. Some are YES MEN for the board and will agree to implement or pilot any idea that they come up with (in fairness not all are terrible). Green Hope, Wake Forest, Middle Creek and Apex Friendship seem to have the most problems. Pretty sure GHHS math department was told implement it or get written up. Admin in charge of math dept is a self described "not a math guy" - you can't make this stuff up (he went to open a new HS so no longer have to worry about that at GHHS). The kicker here is MVP's own FAQ page states it's supposed to be used as a supplement not the main curriculum. I've heard that GHHS is not going to be using it this year. GHHS has its open house on the second day of school, which I think is fabulous so I will get more info then. My kid has math first semester so I'll be talking to the teacher about it.
If your kid has been homeschooled they will probably be light years ahead of any math that WCPSS is currently providing in its base schools. And won't have used books that are riddled with errors.
How long will WCPSS sit on this? I think they've made that pretty clear. Pay attention to who is running for a board seat next time they come up for election.
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