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Old 06-07-2022, 04:25 PM
rfb
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
2,594 posts, read 6,367,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierretong1991 View Post
You're paying for it in some way whether in the form of taxes or tolls.
To be fair, those who drive on NC-540 are playing both taxes and tolls. I agree with the previous poster that it would have been fairer if the highway had remained on the books, even after the toll road was constructed, and the tolls retired when the planned construction date was reached, allowing construction to begin earlier but eventually being paid off via taxes. But I doubt that this will happen.
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Old 06-08-2022, 06:01 AM
 
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Depending on your point of view, what happened to 540 between 54 and 55 was either bait-and-switch or a concession to financial reality. We were told the numbers for both the extension of 147 from 40 to 540 and construction of the west arc of 540 didn't work unless the extension of 147 was also tolled. NCDOT, NCTA, and the Research Triangle Foundation deemed the extension to be vital, and of course it's about to become NC 885 (the I-885 numbering will apply only north of 40). Didn't make sense to toll the extension without also tolling 540 between 54 and 55. So, that's what happened.

This wasn't the only now-you-see-it-now-you-don't. The junction of 147 and 540 was supposed to have a southside connector to Town Hall Dr in Morrisville. Didn't happen. At one time there was discussion to connect 147 to Davis Dr instead, but I haven't heard anything about that in a long time.
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Old 06-08-2022, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Morrisville, NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard-xyzzy View Post
Depending on your point of view, what happened to 540 between 54 and 55 was either bait-and-switch or a concession to financial reality. We were told the numbers for both the extension of 147 from 40 to 540 and construction of the west arc of 540 didn't work unless the extension of 147 was also tolled. NCDOT, NCTA, and the Research Triangle Foundation deemed the extension to be vital, and of course it's about to become NC 885 (the I-885 numbering will apply only north of 40). Didn't make sense to toll the extension without also tolling 540 between 54 and 55. So, that's what happened.

This wasn't the only now-you-see-it-now-you-don't. The junction of 147 and 540 was supposed to have a southside connector to Town Hall Dr in Morrisville. Didn't happen. At one time there was discussion to connect 147 to Davis Dr instead, but I haven't heard anything about that in a long time.
For sure, getting $50 million dollars of free road definitely made that toll pro-forma work better!

As far as the extension, that’s complicated also. It is still sort of on the books, but will shift over to come out on Davis Drive near or aligning with Little Dr. The Preston people not only have succeeded (so far at least)in stopping the Town Hall Dr extension to Crabtree Crossing that has also been planned since before Preston was a thing, they’ve convinced DOT that it would be bad if Town Hall connected directly to 147 also just in case the Town Hall Dr Crabtree connection event does happen.
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Old 06-09-2022, 09:22 AM
 
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When I was a kid growing up in Florida, they started building the Sunshine State Parkway, now known as Florida's Turnpike. We were assured that, as soon as the road paid for itself, the tolls would be retired. Never happened. Turns out that once money is flowing, government is loath to turn off the tap. I'm sure 540 will take a similar course.
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Old 06-09-2022, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakeforestguy View Post
When I was a kid growing up in Florida, they started building the Sunshine State Parkway, now known as Florida's Turnpike. We were assured that, as soon as the road paid for itself, the tolls would be retired. Never happened. Turns out that once money is flowing, government is loath to turn off the tap. I'm sure 540 will take a similar course.
Yeah I feel the same way - they'll find something else to use the toll revenue for
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Old 06-09-2022, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Where the College Used to Be
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakeforestguy View Post
When I was a kid growing up in Florida, they started building the Sunshine State Parkway, now known as Florida's Turnpike. We were assured that, as soon as the road paid for itself, the tolls would be retired. Never happened. Turns out that once money is flowing, government is loath to turn off the tap. I'm sure 540 will take a similar course.
Same thing happened with the Mass Pike. Tolls were supposed to end once it was paid off but nah, never came to be.

Never mind the Feds paid for the Big Dig (thanks Teddy!) and its still like 6 bucks to get to and from Logan via the Ted Williams tunnel.

I agree with you and pierre, once a toll is put in place, doesn't seem all that likely it goes away.
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Old 06-09-2022, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Cary, NC
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It happens occasionally, but yes, it's rare. I-95 in Richmond and I-190 in Buffalo are two I can think of off the top of my head.

At least they seem to be trying to make sure it happens here by writing it into law, but we can only wait and see.
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Old 06-10-2022, 07:51 AM
 
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Some provisions of the NC General Statutes, which (of course) are subject to change. Note that the law doesn't say specifically that tolls go away when the bonds are paid off. Rather, tolls go away when restrictions imposed by the bonds are lifted. In practice this doesn't make much difference because the bonds require the tolls.

§ 136-89.187. Conversion of free highways prohibited.
The Authority Board is prohibited from converting any segment of the nontolled State Highway System to a toll facility, except for a segment of N.C. 540 under construction as of July 1, 2006, located in Wake County and extending from the N.C. 54 exit on N.C. 540 to the N.C. 55 exit on N.C. 540. No segment may be converted to a toll route pursuant to this section unless first approved by the Metropolitan Planning Organization (MPO) or Rural Planning Organization (RPO) of the area in which that segment is located.

§ 136-89.188. Use of revenues.
(a) Revenues derived from a Turnpike Project authorized under this Article shall be used only for the following costs associated with the Project from which the revenue was derived or a contiguous toll facility:
(1) Authority administration costs.
(2) Development, right-of-way acquisition, design, construction, expansion, operation, maintenance, reconstruction, rehabilitation, and replacement costs.
(3) Debt service on the Authority's revenue bonds or related purposes such as the establishment of debt service reserve funds.
(4) Debt service, debt service reserve funds, and other financing costs related to any of the following:
a. A financing undertaken by a private entity under a partnership agreement with the entity for the Project.
b. Private activity bonds issued under law related to the Project.
c. Any federal or State loan, line of credit, or loan guarantee relating to the Project.
(5) A return on investment of any private entity under a partnership agreement with the entity for the Project.
(6) Any other uses granted to a private entity under a partnership agreement with the entity for the Project.
(b) The Authority may use up to one hundred percent (100%) of the revenue derived from a Turnpike Project for debt service on the Authority's revenue bonds or for a combination of debt service and operation and maintenance expenses of the Project.
(c) The Authority shall use not more than five percent (5%) of total revenue derived from all Turnpike Projects for Authority administration costs.

§ 136-89.196. Removal of tolls.
The Authority shall, upon fulfillment of and subject to any restrictions included in the agreements entered into by the Authority in connection with the issuance of the Authority's revenue bonds, remove tolls from a Turnpike Project.

§ 136-89.197. Maintenance of nontoll routes.
The Department shall maintain an existing, alternate, comparable nontoll route corresponding to each Turnpike Project constructed pursuant to this Article.

§ 136-89.198. Authority to toll existing interstate highways.
(a) General. - Notwithstanding any other provision of this Article, the Authority may collect tolls on any existing interstate highway for which the United States Department of Transportation has granted permission by permit, or any other lawful means, to do so. The revenue generated from the collected tolls shall be used by the Authority to repair and maintain the interstate on which the tolls were collected. These revenues shall not be used to repair, maintain, or upgrade any State primary or secondary road adjacent to or connected with the interstate highways.
(b) Method. - The Authority shall establish toll locations on the permitted interstate highway in accordance with federal guidelines. Toll locations shall be erected at or near the borders of the State and at such other locations that are not impracticable, unfeasible, or that would result in an unsafe or hazardous condition.
(c) Severability. - If any provision of this section or its application is held invalid, the invalidity does not affect other provisions or applications of this section that can be given effect without the invalid provisions or application, and to this end the provisions of this section are severable.

§ 136-89.199. Designation of high-occupancy toll and managed lanes.
(a) Authority. - Notwithstanding any other provision of this Article, the Authority may designate one or more lanes of any highway, or portion thereof, within the State, including lanes that may previously have been designated as HOV lanes under G.S. 20-146.2, as high-occupancy toll (HOT) or other type of managed lanes; provided, however, that such designation shall not reduce the number of existing non-toll general purpose lanes. In making such designations, the Authority shall specify the high-occupancy requirement or other conditions for use of such lanes, which may include restricting vehicle types, access controls, or the payment of tolls for vehicles that do not meet the high-occupancy requirements or conditions for use.
(b) Reporting. - At least 90 days prior to the letting of a contract for the designation of a HOT lane or other type of managed lane under subsection (a) of this section, the Authority shall submit a report to the Joint Legislative Transportation Oversight Committee detailing (i) the reasoning for the designation of the HOT lane or other type of managed lane and (ii) the terms of the contract that will be let. The reporting requirement in this subsection does not apply to any project proposed by the Authority that is subject to the reporting requirement set forth in G.S. 136-89.183(a)(2).
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Old 06-12-2022, 12:54 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,664 posts, read 3,953,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVoR View Post
Same thing happened with the Mass Pike. Tolls were supposed to end once it was paid off but nah, never came to be.

Never mind the Feds paid for the Big Dig (thanks Teddy!) and its still like 6 bucks to get to and from Logan via the Ted Williams tunnel.

I agree with you and pierre, once a toll is put in place, doesn't seem all that likely it goes away.
The bonds for 540 have been been refinanced multiple times (during low interest rate periods) which saved millions.

They will absolutely remove the toll once the bonds are paid off, though new tolls could pop up elsewhere.

With cars getting better mileage and the buying power of the gas tax revenue quickly being diminished, something will have to change to maintain the state's 80,000 plus miles of roads.

Tunnels should be tolled because it costs a lot to keep them safe and maintained.

Georgia removed the 50 cent toll on the 1993 extension of GA400, however it happened one year after the bonds were paid off. This delay did not go unnoticed.

The public definitely keeps up with these things, and so it's good to keep some faith and trust in state government.

I hope that once completed that I-540/NC540 will be renamed to what it originally was supposed to be: I-640

I know all about the fed's limitations, but I-95 had provisional permission to add tolls in NC about 15 years ago.

And I-640 would be clear to people navigating that it was a complete loop with the even-number "6".
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Old 06-12-2022, 01:05 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,664 posts, read 3,953,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfb View Post
To be fair, those who drive on NC-540 are playing both taxes and tolls. I agree with the previous poster that it would have been fairer if the highway had remained on the books, even after the toll road was constructed, and the tolls retired when the planned construction date was reached, allowing construction to begin earlier but eventually being paid off via taxes. But I doubt that this will happen.
They are voluntarily paying more to use 540. There are many alternate routes that don't charge extra.

Just like I-77's HOT lanes, you have the option to pay for using a lane that's designed to always flow at least 45 mph or greater.

The state has enormous needs in maintaining the roads. It tries to be fair to all 100 counties, and Gov. McCrory vastly improved how funding is allocated so that the most people possible are benefitted for each project.
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