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Cary and Apex? People don't pick between Cary/Apex or Durham. These are very different places, and people tend to like one or the other.
My link above from the state is better than your link. The data is a year old, and rates have gone down in a lot of places (including Wake and Durham) but you can see comparisons for many places that you would actually compare.
Sorry, but you are wrong once again. Don't forget Morrisville and Raleigh. The links have the current information. Just make sure you are looking in the correct column. The Durham site says 2008-2009. The Wake site states it is the reappraisal tax rate. Obviously you just don't want to face reality and that is your right. Believe what you want to believe if it makes you feel better about how much Durham is charging in taxes. I know how much I am saving and how much more I am getting for what I pay, so I am pretty happy about that. I still hope that Durham can make progress to get themselves in line with surrounding towns, but I guess if they have a lot of people that don't mind paying 40% - 50% more in property taxes, then more power to 'em.
The issue still remains, how does Durham reduce the tax rate so more people will move there, which increases the tax revenue, which then allows the city to provide better services, which is what the OP was talking about?
I guess, I&O, this is the issue.
I don't think the tax rate is what keeps people from moving here.
Durham is an urban area with suburban pockets. Wake Co. is a largely suburban county with some urban pockets. Johnston Co. is almost purely suburban.
The people moving here from Long Island, the Inland Empire, New Hampshire, Worcester, the Chicago burbs, etc. -- they're by and large looking for suburbia, from what you read on these boards over and over. They want big houses on big lots, close to malls (hi VickiR!), close to parks and highways to get to work. Probably a community pool, too.
Outside of some very nice pockets of south Durham (well-represented on this board) and north Durham -- the core of what people think of as Durham doesn't offer this suburban lifestyle. Durham tends to attract people looking for a funkier, more urban lifestyle. Looking for locally-owned businesses and restaurants. A new food co-op is opening downtown and has folks excited. I've heard others cheer Starbucks' travails as meaning more business for our great local coffeeshops. People come out for events like the Beaver Queen Pageant, a family-friendly drag event (I am not making this up) that benefits a local environmental organization.
Even beyond these very core Durham-centric observations, neighborhoods, while tight-knit, tend to have older homes, tree-lined streets, and a good esprit de corps, but many were developed before the days of the HOA and lack community amenities like pools, tennis courts, etc. that so many people look for in new neighborhoods.
People looking for the stereotypical suburban lifestyle aren't exactly going to move to the Bull City regardless of taxes. Frankly, I think someone who has prioritized taxes as being an important factor to them wouldn't mesh that well anyway with the very liberal/Democratic-leaning politics in Durham anyway.
A number of my friends and I talk about this as Durham's "benign neglect" -- Durham has grown the way it has and become the special community it has because the traditional Sunbelt in-migration doesn't happen here. I can't link to the data (since they're on my blog) but the census data show that people from truly urban areas like Manhattan, Chicago, Brooklyn, Boston/Cambridge/Somerville choose Durham Co. disproportionately to Wake Co.
Why? They come from urban cities and are looking for that environment, or they're coming due to Duke's presence. They don't want to live in a suburban-oriented county.
The difference is, few of these individuals are fleeing the northeast due to financial pressure. I don't see many Wall St. I-bankers or Chicago attorneys moving here. I see instead lots of people who work in the service sector or have lower-paid professional positions, who understandably are frustrated on the economic margins of expensive major cities. (See how many people here pine for Long Island "the way it used to be," and say they can't afford "their lifestyle" there.)
Those people vastly outnumber the urban migrants from major cities. And those people will always choose Wake (or South Durham) over Durham.
Sorry, but you are wrong once again. Don't forget Morrisville and Raleigh. The links have the current information. Just make sure you are looking in the correct column. The Durham site says 2008-2009. The Wake site states it is the reappraisal tax rate. Obviously you just don't want to face reality and that is your right. Believe what you want to believe if it makes you feel better about how much Durham is charging in taxes. I know how much I am saving and how much more I am getting for what I pay, so I am pretty happy about that. I still hope that Durham can make progress to get themselves in line with surrounding towns, but I guess if they have a lot of people that don't mind paying 40% - 50% more in property taxes, then more power to 'em.
I out of this debate as it is now pointless.
You haven't had your coffee again, yet, have you? I said, even though my link above shows only through 2007-2008 rates, and your links show the 2008-2009 rates (which have gone down most places), my link shows all towns and districts in NC, with totals, so you can do a complete comparison of towns you would actually compare.
The people I know who make Durham great do not choose where to live based on tax rate. If tax rate determines where you live, I would rather not have you here.
The people I know who make Durham great do not choose where to live based on tax rate. If tax rate determines where you live, I would rather not have you here.
Good point. Indeed, we didn't compare rates. I looked at the amount they'd be adding to the payment for taxes, and it looked more than reasonable considering the services we use and support, and I that was it.
Interesting string -- and having lived here for quite a while now I'll add my two cents.
I pretty much agree with the OP -- I love living in Durham but find the city government pretty frustrating. I haven't had any dealings with the city police so I won't comment there -- but parks and recreation are an issue. I like the people I've dealt with there but they do have some challenges in direction and in getting some things done. (Some things they do very well). In particular I wish they were better at partnering with community run organizations instead of always trying to compete with them.
Now in defense of the government (I can't believe I'm defending the government ) I do think part of the problem is Durham's diversity. While it does make Durham very appealing in many ways, it also means that the folks living in Durham have a wider variety of needs and wants from their government than some of the other cities around. The more suburban areas of So Durham and Northern Durham tend to want facility type parks and rec -- playgrounds, playing fields, pools etc. I sense that many of the downtown types have more emphasis on the artsy type of activities. There are environmental types that want "land conservancy" type parks. And then there are the economic development needs and crime/gang prevention needs of some other areas of the city. I realize that other communities have some of these issues but there does tend to be a primary group that provides a focus that Durham doesn't/can't have.
Compounding the problem is that many of these diverse groups have very vocal activists meaning that someone is always pushing for one thing or opposing what someone else wants/needs. There is also sometimes a lack of consideration of the needs of different groups -- a few years ago a downtown based group opposed Herndon Park because Durham wasn't maintaining the parks it had. The lack of maintenance was a legitimate gripe but at the same time there were many downtown parks and all of So Durham only had a couple and with all the kids down here really needed the playing fields Herndon would offer.
Further compounding the problem is that it is also not easy to get from one side of Durham to the other (North/South) so a facility that's built on one side if not very accessible to folks living on the other side. I live in So Durham and often find it easier to get to Chapel Hill and Cary and even some places in Raleigh than to go somewhere North of I-85 in Durham. So building a facility in No Durham or So Durham doesn't help the folks on the other side.
Ok, I could go on & on on this subject but I've said more than enough already...........
The issue still remains, how does Durham reduce the tax rate so more people will move there, which increases the tax revenue, which then allows the city to provide better services, which is what the OP was talking about? It is not an issue of me not liking Durham, because I do. I want to see all the towns in the Triangle do well. I have a lot of pride in this area.
The first way to fix this? Better education. And I'm talking about buyers. Because as I said before, my husband and I save money by living in Durham ... even with the higher tax rate.
I did a little math yesterday. I took the value of my house and found out how much my tax bill will be here in southern Durham in the Parkwood fire district and compared it to what my tax bill would be if I had a house with the exact same value in Cary. And yes, my tax bill will be higher - Just under $1000 higher, actually. That's a lot of money, right? So how can I be saving money by living here? Here's how.
My husband's car gets 25 miles per gallon on his commute. Gas costs $4 a gallon now, so that $1000 buys him 1250 miles. Mr. Steel spends 250 days a year at his office (an average of 5 days a week for 50 weeks a year. He actually takes more than 2 weeks off a year, but when you add in the additional weekends when he as to go in, it evens out). So take that 1250 miles and divide it by 250 days. You end up with 5 miles. Divide that by his 2 trips a day (one going to work and the other coming home) and you end up with 2.5 miles. If my husband and I could have found a house in Cary with a commute that was 2.5 miles longer (or less) than his current commute and that had the same property value as our current house, then it would have been cost effective for us to move to Cary. But that barely put us into the Cary city limits and, frankly, we didn't see anything we liked there. The same is true for Raleigh and Morrisville. From a financial point of view, this house in Durham made more sense for us.
And gas isn't the only expense we considered. Since my husband's commute is so short now that we live in Durham, we qualified for a lower car insurance rate. And we're so close to everything else we need that I barely have to drive anywhere at all (which means that my car qualified for an even lower insurance rate than my husband's). In addition, the house be bought is nicer than the homes that were available to us in the other areas. And our neighborhood is very pretty with lower HOA fees. This feels like "home" to us. It's hard to put a dollar amount on that, but it's certainly worth a great deal to us.
Now, this is just our situation. Your mileage may vary. But I am positive that we are not the only people who save money by living in Durham. If more people were educated on how the taxes break down, then perhaps more people would chose to move to Durham. Not all, of course, but whoever said that there's only one right place for everyone? It's completely up to individual circumstance.
I love Durham, as does my husband. We're thrilled to bits to be living here. The money we save by living here is just gravy. If we had to do it all over again, I'm sure we'd make the same decision.
The first way to fix this? Better education. And I'm talking about buyers. Because as I said before, my husband and I save money by living in Durham ... even with the higher tax rate.
I did a little math yesterday. I took the value of my house and found out how much my tax bill will be here in southern Durham in the Parkwood fire district and compared it to what my tax bill would be if I had a house with the exact same value in Cary. And yes, my tax bill will be higher - Just under $1000 higher, actually. That's a lot of money, right? So how can I be saving money by living here? Here's how.
My husband's car gets 25 miles per gallon on his commute. Gas costs $4 a gallon now, so that $1000 buys him 1250 miles. Mr. Steel spends 250 days a year at his office (an average of 5 days a week for 50 weeks a year. He actually takes more than 2 weeks off a year, but when you add in the additional weekends when he as to go in, it evens out). So take that 1250 miles and divide it by 250 days. You end up with 5 miles. Divide that by his 2 trips a day (one going to work and the other coming home) and you end up with 2.5 miles. If my husband and I could have found a house in Cary with a commute that was 2.5 miles longer (or less) than his current commute and that had the same property value as our current house, then it would have been cost effective for us to move to Cary. But that barely put us into the Cary city limits and, frankly, we didn't see anything we liked there. The same is true for Raleigh and Morrisville. From a financial point of view, this house in Durham made more sense for us.
And gas isn't the only expense we considered. Since my husband's commute is so short now that we live in Durham, we qualified for a lower car insurance rate. And we're so close to everything else we need that I barely have to drive anywhere at all (which means that my car qualified for an even lower insurance rate than my husband's). In addition, the house be bought is nicer than the homes that were available to us in the other areas. And our neighborhood is very pretty with lower HOA fees. This feels like "home" to us. It's hard to put a dollar amount on that, but it's certainly worth a great deal to us.
Now, this is just our situation. Your mileage may vary. But I am positive that we are not the only people who save money by living in Durham. If more people were educated on how the taxes break down, then perhaps more people would chose to move to Durham. Not all, of course, but whoever said that there's only one right place for everyone? It's completely up to individual circumstance.
I love Durham, as does my husband. We're thrilled to bits to be living here. The money we save by living here is just gravy. If we had to do it all over again, I'm sure we'd make the same decision.
I agree with the premise of your argument, but your math is off. If your husband gets 25 miles / gallon and a gallon costs $4, then it costs $0.16/mile. So $1000 of gas goes 6,250 miles. So you would have to add 12.5 miles each way to your commute to add an additional $1000. Of course there is the value of his time and many other factors to consider.
Good grief, I see the error in my math now. I shouldn't attempt to do math when I'm so sick (Don't breathe near me, people. Seriously!). All that being said, I still think there are a number of people who save money by living in Durham, even with the higher tax rate. Those people are the ones who tend to work within Durham county, as well, so they benefit in many other ways, too.
When we were house hunting, we looked further afield than just a few extra miles from my husband's office. We looked at surrounding communities and even considered living in a rural setting where we'd only pay county taxes. But we just didn't like anything else that we saw. We simply prefer where we are & that just happens to be in Durham. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
In & Out, I know you love Durham because I know that you used to live here until just a year ago. I know that you still chose to spend a good deal of time in many parts of Durham. And I'm sure it still hurts you on some level when you hear people say negative, false things about this town. So if you ever come up with a good plan to lower property taxes here, just let us know! In the mean time, I'm just doing what I can: living in a town I love & hoping that my presence is good for the community.
Interesting string -- and having lived here for quite a while now I'll add my two cents.
I think this is one of the best analysis that I've read about Durham recently!!! Very well thought out and very well put. Rep points to you!!!
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) I do think part of the problem is Durham's diversity. While it does make Durham very appealing in many ways, it also means that the folks living in Durham have a wider variety of needs and wants from their government than some of the other cities around. The more suburban areas of So Durham and Northern Durham tend to want facility type parks and rec -- playgrounds, playing fields, pools etc. I sense that many of the downtown types have more emphasis on the artsy type of activities. There are environmental types that want "land conservancy" type parks. And then there are the economic development needs and crime/gang prevention needs of some other areas of the city. I realize that other communities have some of these issues but there does tend to be a primary group that provides a focus that Durham doesn't/can't have. 
But I am positive that we are not the only people who save money by living in Durham. If more people were educated on how the taxes break down, then perhaps more people would chose to move to Durham. Not all, of course, but whoever said that there's only one right place for everyone? It's completely up to individual circumstance.
