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But the state does not prevent students from questioning the material in the process. This seems to be where she started having issues with her students.
No - it's where the students started having issues with her. She did not entertain extensive questions, it appears, because the curriculum does not provide for debate/discussion about religion - not because of what religion she may or may not be, and what religion her students may or may not be. Her resistance is what then led to the harassing behavior.
It is open to interpretation if it was a personal attack. It appears that the students were within the rules, even if the teacher did not happen to like the gift or their t-shirts or questions. Based on her facebook comments, she seemed to feel it was and wanted to get back at the students, somehow. I could see that as a basis for suspension.
Will the society tolerate a muslim/jew/buddhist being given pork, or a Christian being given Koran, as a holiday gift? These are not against the law or "rules" as far as I know, but at least very, very rude.
For those of you who asked if I read the article. No, I heard it on my news station and the first thing that came into my mind was "The American Privacy Act." That teacher had no business talking about what the student did even to her closest friend. She violated the child's privacy by telling what the child did in school. Public employees live with this privacy act on a daily basis. It covers school, libraries, medical. What happens at work, stays at work.
How would you like to read on facebook about the operation you had that day. A person can discuss their own experiences, but they cannot discuss patron or in this case student behavior. To have a teacher be so strong as to say the child did a hate crime shows prejudice against that child and I certainly would not want that teacher grading a child of mine if she feels that way about my child's religion. It goes both ways but some of you want to nickpick.
I once had a teacher tell our entire class that he did not go to church on Sunday because he wrote the sermons his preacher preached. The church was a college town and the preacher wanted to make sure he did not use incorrect grammar. This was my English teacher. When I went home and told my mother about it, her comment was that she would not want to go to that church. She did not go to the school board or principal. Some things are hard to prove, but facebook is right there in your face.
I would be the first to say the teacher has a right to be or not to be any religion and tact has to be used on a public job when someone mentions religion. I have listened to all kinds of things that I didn't agree with, but I knew it was not my place to try and correct the person saying them. When someone gives you a gift the proper response is to say "thank you." After that the gift is yours to do with as you wish. I guess the thing that really is offensive is to say that the gift was a hate crime. You don't give gifts to people you hate.
NCN, I have worked in both a high school and a healthcare system setting and have never heard of anything like the "American Privacy Act" - perhaps you are thinking of FERPA or HIPAA? FERPA would be the closest thing that might apply to the situation and it only covers student records and directory information such as names and phone numbers. Believe me, it is perfectly legal to discuss a student's behavior in class with anyone you choose. The teacher in question didn't mention the kid's name in her FB rants but even if she did, it's technically not illegal. Unethical and potentially in violation of the school system's confidentiality rules? Sure. But it's not illegal.
I do agree with you that there is a chance the teacher might show bias toward the student in grading now that she has a beef with the kid. I also agree that you don't give gifts to people you hate, but as I said in an earlier post, the bible was a pointed gesture disguised as a so-called gift. Ever heard of the old wolf in sheep's clothing parable? A dear friend of mine who was a self-identified "hardcore Fundie" (her words) once said: "The Bible is a good book, but when you pick it up and hit someone over the head with it, then it becomes a weapon like anything else."
Would you like it if an Agnostic or Atheist gave you a copy of The God Delusion knowing full well that the contents fly in the face of your most cherished beliefs? Or would it feel more like a thinly veiled attack on your beliefs? Put yourself in this teacher's shoes for a moment and maybe her anger will be more understandable.
That is not what I gathered from her comments-she seemed to have the problems when the students didn't agree with everything she was teaching as fact. By her words and actions, she seems as though perhaps she belongs teaching in a setting where no student would deviate from her particular belief system.
What she was teaching was the school's curriculum - science. Theories (look that up, might not mean what you think) based on evidence. Information that is supported by MOUNTAINS of peer-reviewed work across many fields of science.
I don't think a middle schooler is likely to have the scientific background to question evolution. Any questioning would have to be based on religious belief passed on from other adults. That is a discussion best had at home or at a place of worship.
Wanderintonc, let me ask you some follow-up questions. Do you think that what these students were doing was going to lead the teacher to become a Christian? Do you think the methods used by the students and apparently encouraged by their parents had the teacher's best interests at heart? Or do they seem more like persecution than real love and concern? Do you think this situation shines a positive light on Christianity? Would you recommend that other students follow this example?
NCN, I have worked in both a high school and a healthcare system setting and have never heard of anything like the "American Privacy Act" - perhaps you are thinking of FERPA or HIPAA? FERPA would be the closest thing that might apply to the situation and it only covers student records and directory information such as names and phone numbers. Believe me, it is perfectly legal to discuss a student's behavior in class with anyone you choose. The teacher in question didn't mention the kid's name in her FB rants but even if she did, it's technically not illegal. Unethical and potentially in violation of the school system's confidentiality rules? Sure. But it's not illegal.
Yeah, I'd like to see text of this "American Privacy Act". I work in healthcare data, which is EXTENSIVELY covered by HIPAA (which would prevent the "discussion of your operation" you mention), but I'm not aware of anything that says teachers can't discuss their students--every teacher I know talks about their students, usually in a positive way, or a "the funniest thing happened at school today" sort of way. Most of them outright BRAG on them on occasion. I've never heard of a law against this, though what DownEast mentions about student records, etc and mentioning specific names would obviously be forbidden. I don't know whether she mentioned the student by name, or not.
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I do agree with you that there is a chance the teacher might show bias toward the student in grading now that she has a beef with the kid.
But this will always be the case with teachers and kids who cause trouble. Always has been. Just as there is a tendency to want to go lenient on the kids who are well-behaved and go out of their way to be nice to the teachers. Anyone who goes into teaching soon learns that both of these tendencies must be quelled.
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Would you like it if an Agnostic or Atheist gave you a copy of The God Delusion knowing full well that the contents fly in the face of your most cherished beliefs? Or would it feel more like a thinly veiled attack on your beliefs? Put yourself in this teacher's shoes for a moment and maybe her anger will be more understandable.
I've always though it was a horrible shame that all children aren't taught a "Religions of the World" course in elementary school. They are often taught in their homes that theirs is the only religion and everyone else is ignorant or going to hell. Even if such a course was ever approved (chances: NEVER), finding an impartial person to teach that course here in the Bible Belt would be nearly impossible.
Each year that I taught World Literature, it was necessary to also teach about different beliefs, customs, dress, foods, you-name-it. One of the best films I ever purchased for use in my classroom discussed the (6) major religions of the world, and the students always commented upon the similarities, even between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Like you, I have always thought it a shame, that we have World Literature and World History courses, but no World Religion. I do know that there are teachers, much like me, who liked to include the whole picture.
I also understand completely your finding your child's teacher's expressing her religious views in the classroom out-of-place. I don't know how you sat through the conference with her commenting that God would set you free. Was she misquoting you think, and the Truth shall set you free? I worked with a woman like this, who drove many of us insane with her constant proselytizing -- we couldn't have a faculty meeting but what she wasn't thanking, or praising, Jesus.
I cannot help but wonder if it wouldn't have gone entirely different, had the teacher been expressing views of another extreme. Seems to be little tolerance of any belief, or no belief, other than Christianity.
As for the teacher being “stupid” I disagree. She may be the one hope those children have to learn something balanced, and tolerant of others views.
Additionally, giving a non christian a bible when you know it is not their faith is rude and unacceptable. I may not call it a hate crime, but I sure would say it was not behavior we should ever have in our schools.
Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 02-18-2010 at 04:36 PM..
Reason: Edited out deleted [off-topic] post and your response to it.
While I appreciate that this is an important issue, I need to remind everyone that the topic of this thread is ONLY the suspension of a local teacher. If the thread continues to veer off-topic, I'll have no choice but to shut it down.
FYI: There's a similar thread running on the Education forum, if you'd like to add your input there. If you'd like to discuss the religious aspects of this issue, please head on over to the Religion & Philosophy forum.
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