What advice should I give my friend? (dating, wife, boyfriend)

[dullnboring]

Okay, so I'm not even sure what advice I'm seeking here. As you may infer from my previous posts, I'm really long-winded so just bear with me here. The gist of the story though who don't want to read through the whole post is that my friend is going through a really rough divorce and is constantly seeking my advice and words of support but I'm finding myself struggling more and more in what to tell her as she continually makes the worst possible choices. It seems like she depends on me to keep her sane but I'm finding myself just unsure of what to say to her. Now the long version...

A good friend of mine from college is really going through a hard time right now. We started out on similar paths when we were in college but at some point, she went down Path A and I went down Path B, going in completely opposite directions and never intersecting. She had dreams of becoming a storm chaser, or at the least, a meteorologist. She was raised poor but in a very wealthy area, was a straight A student in high school and while in college was attached to her high school boyfriend of two years and managed to maintain a near perfect GPA. Then it all fell apart.

She cheated on her boyfriend, he broke up with her, she began drinking heavily, and eventually due to both financial and personal issues, decided to drop out of school after completing only three semesters. Initially, her plan was to just take some time off, save up some money, re-group, and then enroll in another college. That never happened. She got a job, and wound up having an affair with her boss. She was single but he was attached to someone at the time. When his current girlfriend found out, she attacked my friend (wasn't horribly hurt) and then outed them as a couple to their superiors at work which resulted in them both being dismissed from their jobs. They continued to have an on again, off again relationship for some time then. He had an ex-wife with a child across the country. He's also an ex-con and a recreational drug user. My friend also admitted that she wasn't physically attracted to him in the slightest and he was the type of guy that she generally loathed, but of course, he was willing to lather attention on HER. For whatever reason though, my friend for as long as she could remember, just wanted to be a wife and mother. Even when we first met at age 18, she said that was all that she wanted. So against the advice of virtually all of her friends, she and he got married rather suddenly after around one year of on-again, off-again dating (with only about two months of "on again" at the time of the wedding) when she was 21 which may not sound young to some people here, but for people where I/we are from and in our circle of friends, that's unheard of.

For the past couple of years, they've been hopping all over the country. His work is somewhat unstable so they've had to up and move several times. She worked in the same industry (selling cars) but not at the same place. She seemed somewhat happy whenever I spoke with her, but I didn't speak with her that often because she was so far away and also the fact that the husband was a jealous man who didn't like her having male friends. She wanted a child but was diagnosed with a disease that left chances minimal. Against all odds however, she got pregnant and had a son a few years back. While she and I have always maintained contact, we've been in better contact for the past year or two, especially since she moved one year ago back to the East Coast, so I have since even seen her a couple of times. Each time I saw her, she seemed to be more and more unhappy with her life. More and more little remarks started slipping in our emails, about her being unhappy with her life and her husband and things of that nature. She initially wanted a big family but now admitted to being completely overwhelmed with one and to be ashamed that she didn't enjoy being a full-time mom as much as she thought she would. When we saw each other, when she'd hint at things, I was never certain if it was my place to press her on issues, to get into the personal questions, but she more or less stated that she was incredibly unhappy in her marriage and said that getting married so young was the biggest mistake of her life. She told me that she was still in love with her old high school boyfriend and desperately wanted to get into contact with him again. Her husband had gotten laid off from one or two jobs for being irresponsible and after a long period of unemployment as their bank account dropped and he showed no signs of wanting to look for work, she decided that she would be the breadwinner and he would stay home with their son. That didn't sit with his male ego well, so he went and found a job two hours away. He commutes five hours a day just so that HE can be the one bringing home the bacon. The guy is an all-around loser. In addition to all of his other "winning" qualities I stated earlier, he has no concept of money, goes through money like it's water, and they actually had their bank account drained due to the fact that he had not been paying child support for his daughter he had with his ex-wife. He also was instrumental in getting my friend to try crystal meth, which thankfully, she got off rather quickly. I also suspect some infidelity on his part based on things she's said. Anyways, as a result of this new job, she and he only see each other one day per week. She's a stay at home mom and as such, falls asleep well before he gets home and he wakes up before she does due to his insane commute. Of course, this can't be good for any marriage.

Alright, so things exploded recently. I don't know what precipitated it but there was a huge blow-up and the husband basically took all of his son's possessions, packed them in his car and tries to take their son with him. The police showed up and escorted him off the property. She filed for a legal separation and a restraining order and received it and was given custody of their son. They were both also ordered to attend counseling sessions due to domestic violence. I had suspicions that he had hit her in the past but no clear-cut evidence until she told me this. Basically, while he begged for forgiveness, she laid down the rules and told him she needs at least six months to think things over and he is not allowed in her house. A good move on her part. Surprisingly, he agreed with not much of a fight and actually found another job and moved to a neighboring state three hours away, good in the sense that she's no longer living in fear that he could show up at any point and attack her. She's now however in a really bad situation as a single mom, with no income coming in, no college education, and a son who is only two and a half years old, living in a home she cannot afford (and due to a loan they secured for the phone, I believe they are tied to it for a set amount of time, several years at least, or they take a big financial penalty). She has few friends where she lives and no family, and what family she does have is incredibly unsupportive and takes the husband's side (she grew up in an abusive household; her mother actually told her "you're difficult to live with and he's stressed, so what do you expect him to do?" and said she'd never find anyone else). She is incredibly lonely. She is the type, as her history indicates, that always needs someone (a man) by her. A neighbor of her's was being a godsend during the past few months, helping her out with her son, keeping her company and checking in on her and making her feel safe. Against her better judgment, she and he became romantically involved. Then she suddenly had a change of heart and decided that she is technically a married woman and it is wrong of her to be doing this with someone else so she called it off with him. The neighbor is completely crushed and now doesn't want to have anything to do with her. She's upset because she feels like she's chased away the one person who has been her rock through this whole thing. On top of all of this, she has struggled with severe depression and mental issues for her entire life.

Anyways, throughout this whole ordeal, I've been trying to be as supportive as I can be from far away, giving her whatever words of wisdom and strength I can to try to instill some confidence in her and to keep her spirits up. Well, she just sent me an email telling me the latest developments (that of the neighbor situation) and telling me that she's miserable because she had to enroll her son in a daycare that he hates so she can look for work, and that she is so incredibly lonely that she thinks she's going to take her husband back just to have someone to hold her at night.

I guess my point in this unnecessarily long-winded post (believe it or not but I actually left out A LOT of other drama in her life and marriage), is what do I tell her? I just don't quite now how to handle this situation. From things she's told me, I feel like I'm one of the few people who she's still in contact with and that she basically depends on me for support as I'm one of the few who will do so, so I feel in a way like if I fall short, she implodes, as melodramatic as that may be. At the same time, I just don't know what to say to her anymore. As you can see, she needs some serious help, and makes HORRIBLE choices in her life. With each individual I get her, I grow more and more exasperated. I just want to shake her.

So I guess I'm just sort of frustrated and ranting at the moment. I'm not even sure what advice I'm looking for but if you sat through and read that long post, firstly, you're more patient than I am and secondly, if you have any advice of any sort, feel free to pipe in.

[canibeyou]

I don't know which is more astonishing... the fact that I read all of that or the fact that you typed all of that!

I'd strongly suggest your friend seek professional therapy. Therapy is for the strong. The weak are the ones that never seek the help they truly need. So many people have it the other way around, that, when therapy is suggested, they chose not to go because they think they'll be viewed as a loser. That's simply not true. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/canibeyou/nono.gif (broken link)

I really think your friend needs to sit down with someone and talk some stuff out and get the professional advise she needs, rather than ruin a friendship with you. And I say that last part because, eventually, her coming to you for advise constantly, is going to put a strain on the relationship (as it apparently has begun to do already).

Best of luck to her!

[dullnboring]

Originally Posted by canibeyou

I don't know which is more astonishing... the fact that I read all of that or the fact that you typed all of that!

Heh. Yeah, brevity ain't one of my virtues, and you get reps just for reading that. I probably wouldn't even read a post that was that long.

I'd strongly suggest your friend seek professional therapy. Therapy is for the strong. The weak are the ones that never seek the help they truly need. So many people have it the other way around, that, when therapy is suggested, they chose not to go because they think they'll be viewed as a loser. That's simply not true. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/canibeyou/nono.gif (broken link)

I agree with you. I think she definitely needs professional help. Even she realizes it. The problem however lies in two key areas that single mothers tend to have little of: time and money. I haven't asked her much for the specifics, but I'd imagine that the domestic abuse counseling would at least touch on some of the same issues a therapist would.

I really think your friend needs to sit down with someone and talk some stuff out and get the professional advise she needs, rather than ruin a friendship with you. And I say that last part because, eventually, her coming to you for advise constantly, is going to put a strain on the relationship (as it apparently has begun to do already).

Best of luck to her!

I wouldn't say it has necessarily put a strain on the relationship really. I'm just more awestruck than anything. It's like watching a car crash and I'm just shocked by just how much her life has completely veered from the path it was on. I just feel so badly for her. There's a potential if in the future for example, if she were to constantly seek me out for solace when she keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, or if she ever tries to pull me into her drama, that I may become angry or resentful in the future, but thus far that's not the case. Right now, I'm just sort of speechless with every new development that she tells me. I try to put the most positive spin I can on things for her to give her support and confidence but it's just like I've got less and less to work with.

She HAS made some steps in her life in recent years though, some improvements. She quit drinking, quit the dabbling in drugs, became very health conscious and started going back to church (whatever your views on organized religion may be and whether you see this as a positive or negative, for her personally, it's a positive). She's also a devoted mother and has never and will never strike her son, which is a step up from how she was raised. The last I saw her back in March (pre-separation), she had settled into their new home, and seemed to actually have a decent long-term plan in mind for going back to school and starting a career in education, but that has of course now all been pushed back indefinitely. That's pretty much the story of her life though. Lots of ups and downs. Her biggest weakness, the issue that has caused so many of her problems, is her dependence on men. If she could learn to be comfortable being by herself, to not feel the need to ALWAYS have a man, ANY man by her side, she'd have been able to have side-stepped so many of her past mistakes, and I just keep hoping and hoping that she'd learn but she just doesn't seem to get it.

[Sgoldie]

I would never advise someone to take back a person who had physically (or otherwise) abused them. That's the first advice.

She needs to learn to stand on her own two feet, a man is never going to give her an identity or security for that matter. She has a responsibility now for a child and she needs to get a job. She'll make friends there and hopefully become less dependent solely on you.

[rgb123]

WOW...I just had this conversation with my friend at work. I have a friend (friends since we were 5) well...I'm more her friend than she is mine...she leans on me quite a bit and makes horrible choices. She asks me for advice but never takes it....things always go badly (not that I am always right, its usually just pretty easy to see)

She is also very high drama, and has never been able to stand alone, and always needs a man. She is doing much better now....but as another woman, I sometimes have a hard time respecting her because of her poor choices (cheating on her husband, rushing back into another relationship, 3 baby's daddies, calling me at all hours but never really asking me how IM doing)

Her and I are like polar opposites. I am sinlge for long periods of time, I went to school and basically have just always been very independent (not that I didn't lean on my parents a bit...I just mean as in I dont need to be in a relationship and can do acitivities by myself, etc).

I always wonder why she comes to me....she knows what I will say, that I will urge her to take the high road....to not involve her children in her drama's (okay but I'm much nicer about it then I am here). Basically, I listen but the moral is, I try to tell her what I would do....but I've generally never been in any of her situations because I have some self-control and patience....self-restraint, that is the word.

I dont know how to handle it either. I just told my friend at work about it because I am wondering also.

She called me to hang out the other day, and wanted to go to a place we would certainly run into her ex-husband and his girlfriend, and maybe her boyfriend too....and with her kids. I said no way....lets go to this other place!

I always thought this friend of mine had a good heart...but the more I see her life this way, the more people she hurts due to her bad decisions and lack of faith, or independence, or whatever it is that makes her continuously jump without looking....the more I am thinking she is not so worthy of my friendship.

There have been times I have told her I could no longer talk to her. Usually she comes around and perhaps it is why she trusts me the most. But then again I am one of the few friends she has that puts up with as much as I have. She really doesn't have many good female friends and I am definitley the oldest of her relationships.

Hmm.I am trying to think of advice to give here....definitley dont let yourself get pulled into the drama and be as honest as possible....let her know you care about her but that she has to reach deep within and fix this herself. You wont abandon her as a friend but you can't save her either.

One thing that my friend did that shocked the heck out of me....she went back to school (just a two year program) stuck with it....and actually has a real job now. I have to say I had my doubts she would complete it but she did.

She is still full of drama, and still makes terrible decisions but I can see that her confidence level is at an all time high. She is doing much better FOR HER. I still have a hard time understanding her but its a big improvement.

your friend should try to put school into the plan even though it may seem like the wrong time....that would be my guess...as a friend. She could always take out student loans and would probably get more assistance as a single mother for school. she might even get grants.....she will get better aid than she did as a younger person too....people over 24 are considered independents and get more $$

[solidsquid]

Your friend needs long term, professional help and the sooner she starts the better. However, she must make that decision to do so - you cannot force her into it.

It sounds as if she has things she must deal with that go back even to her upbringing. The co-dependence issue is a large problem she'll need to deal with and well as possibly working on her impulse control and initiation of higher order thinking in her decision processes.

[dullnboring]

Thanks for the advice guys. I had just received my latest email from her last night so I guess I was just in a ranting mood.

I actually recommended to her that she get a dog, lol. I wasn't even kidding or trying to be snarky either, but honestly thought that a dog could perhaps provide some sort of companionship that she craves, but not nearly as much of the headaches of attaching herself to the next guy that crosses her path.

I just really have a hard time wrapping my head around her and the decisions that she makes. In some ways, she's so well put together and so incredibly smart, but in others, it's just like she's a complete wreck with no common sense.

I had been predicting their inevitable divorce since the day they got married and was actually surprised they lasted this long. However, once she had their son, I became much more concerned due to the fact that I knew that if they did break up, she would be left a single mother so in a way, I was really hoping they'd at least make it until he was school aged (bear in mind, I knew nothing of the abuse until recently). I just wish she had the time and finances for therapy, but it seems to me like she's almost guaranteed to be stuck in this rut of sorts until she sends her son off to school in 2-3 years. It's so sad. She's such a bright girl and I really hope she gets her life turned around. I have faith in her, but it will take some time and some serious changes in behavior.

[jhlcomp]

I may have missed a few thousand characters in the missle (just my sense of humor poking out). It is wonderful that you are being so supportive while she, sorry to say this, is dumping on you. You are being such a nice guy and she is such a mess. If you feel the need, continue to be supportive - be a good listener.

Sadly, this is the type of person who can never quite get it right because just when they do they decide "Oh... I am so lonely...." or they hook up with someone that is a warm body, but all wrong for them, because they just don't have any common sense - you see the scenario.

You want to keep this at arms length, because the next person she is going to visit is her good friend ... you! Take care.

[Rance]

Tell her to hook back up with the neighbor. She just ran off the best thing she ever had.

[Global Friend]

DNB - My opinion is she needs to first learn to accept she has made mistakes and learn from them. She needs to understand that no man or anyone else can make her happy unless she's happy with herself. Even if she meets a great guy, (maybe the neighbor) it probably won't work out because she has problems she needs to fix first. The best thing she could do is be strong and be by herself with friends support. She should not get romantically involved with anyone until she straightens out her life. If it were my friend I would point out her good qualities as you did in your post and tell her she has to believe in herself and that she can do it. She also needs to know, she should be setting a good example for her child by being a strong person. You can't make her do anything but with some positive words and pointing out the way she has been doing things isn't working, SHE needs to change things because noone else can for her. She's lucky she has a friend like you for support.