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Girl A: She was a 7.5. We were both college freshmen at the time. After I got her number, I called her the following evening. Left a message. When she returned my call the next day, I picked up on the second ring. I never once cancelled a date on her. I was never late. I listened to everything she said. Knew her birthday, favorite color, etc. Always paid for dates. Stopped dating other girls to date her exclusively.
Girl B: She was also a 7.5. We were both 3 or 4 years out of college by this time. I waited 4 days to call her. Left a message. When she called back, I looked at the Caller ID, threw the phone on the couch, and kept playing Madden with my friend. I cancelled a date on her once with no explanation. Just told her "something came up" (codeword for going out with my friends). I got her birthday wrong. She constantly had to repeat things to me. I can't tell you her favorite color to this day. We went dutch on most dates and she even paid for some. I never stopped dating other girls. In fact, I would often rush dates with her so I could pick up another girl right after I dropped her off.
I love how guys find an insecure woman who'll put up with them treating her badly and immediately conclude that it was their jerkish behavior that she found attractive. The only conclusion I would draw from your example is that there are some women who lack self-respect.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
A woman's position along the alpha-beta axis is defined by her looks, not her attitude. Just like a woman's ranking on the 1-10 scale is defined by her looks, not her attitude. So in nearly all cases, a 7 will be more alpha than a 5. So to answer your question more directly, I can't say whether a woman who is "clear in her convictions, compassionate and giving" is an alpha or beta female without seeing her. If she's all of those things and ugly, then she's a really good person that's a beta female. If she's the opposite of those things and she's hot, then she's a rotten person that's an alpha female.
False. A woman's ranking on a 1-10 scale is defined not only by her looks, but also by her attitude. A girl could be hot, but if she's a total b****, I won't waste my time on her and I doubt you'll find many self-respecting men who would, unless all they want is sex.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
An alpha male is very simply any guy who hot chicks are attracted to. Don't think of it as any more than that.
False. If a hot girl is attracted to a shy guy, does that mean he's an alpha male? Of course not. If a hot girl isn't attracted to a good-looking guy who acts like a jerk, does that mean he's not an alpha male? Not true either. I still don't see why you keep using a definition of alpha and beta that no one else but you seems to subscribe to.
OK, I'm with you so far, except we might bicker over "oftentimes." But anyway, why do guys attempt to be alphas by adopting or mimicking the jerkiness, evasiveness, violence, etc., rather than the intelligence and creativity? Is it just easier to do? Why not set the bar higher for the type of woman they would like to catch?
Some guys do. It's just that every woman has a taste for a different type of male "power." Some women are attracted to money. Some are attracted to swagger. Sadly, some are attracted to men who beat them up (See Rihanna and Chris Brown). A fair number of women, on a very base and carnal level, are only attracted to the Chris Browns of the world. The attraction can sometimes be so strong that these women go against their better judgment.
I don't think it's so much that guys become jerks to please women. I think it's more the case that some women seek out men who don't treat them right. For some women, something feels right about the push/pull, hot/cold/hot/cold, drama-filled, always-on-your-toes, he keeps me guessing, "Is he going to come home tonight?" types of relationships. As a guy (a decent guy, anyway), you just have to leave those types of girls be.
Some guys do. It's just that every woman has a taste for a different type of male "power." Some women are attracted to money. Some are attracted to swagger. Sadly, some are attracted to men who beat them up (See Rihanna and Chris Brown). A fair number of women, on a very base and carnal level, are only attracted to the Chris Browns of the world. The attraction can sometimes be so strong that these women go against their better judgment.
I don't think it's so much that guys become jerks to please women. I think it's more the case that some women seek out men who don't treat them right. For some women, something feels right about the push/pull, hot/cold/hot/cold, drama-filled, always-on-your-toes, he keeps me guessing, "Is he going to come home tonight?" types of relationships. As a guy (a decent guy, anyway), you just have to leave those types of girls be.
I agree with all of this. I don't think that anybody ever says that no woman is ever attracted to men who treat her badly; obviously some are. What I don't agree with is when guys say that all women are attracted to jerks and swagger, because we're not. Choosing a string of abusive boyfriends is more likely to be the result of daddy issues, not some involuntary tingling because bad boys are so irresistible.
I agree with all of this. I don't think that anybody ever says that no woman is ever attracted to men who treat her badly; obviously some are. What I don't agree with is when guys say that all women are attracted to jerks and swagger, because we're not. Choosing a string of abusive boyfriends is more likely to be the result of daddy issues, not some involuntary tingling because bad boys are so irresistible.
I love how guys find an insecure woman who'll put up with them treating her badly and immediately conclude that it was their jerkish behavior that she found attractive. The only conclusion I would draw from your example is that there are some women who lack self-respect.
I love how people make unwarranted assumptions about the people in my life when they don't even know me. Neither of these girls had self-esteem issues. They both lead focused, structured, and rather conscientious lives (Girl A is now married and is a software designer; Girl B works for a non-profit and dates a decent guy I know through mutual friends). There was no drama with either of these girls, although I have dated girls who were prone to drama.
There's no getting around basic human psychology. When something is too available, we subconsciously downgrade it. There's nothing groundbreaking about that.
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Originally Posted by DennyCrane
False. A woman's ranking on a 1-10 scale is defined not only by her looks, but also by her attitude. A girl could be hot, but if she's a total b****, I won't waste my time on her and I doubt you'll find many self-respecting men who would, unless all they want is sex.
Whether you'll "waste your time on her" (pre-emptive rejection, huh Denny?) does not change the fact that she's hot. On the flip side, if a girl is nice, caring, intelligent, but homely, you would not notice her at all. You wouldn't "waste your time" on the homely girl either, Denny, now would you?
Attraction is a necessary, but not sufficient, prerequisite for love. Without attraction, everything else is moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane
False. If a hot girl is attracted to a shy guy, does that mean he's an alpha male? Of course not.
If he attracts lots of hot girls, then yes, he's an alpha male. The concept is relatively straight forward, Denny. It doesn't require much intellectual nimbleness to equate "alpha male" with "attractiveness and distinguish that from your own understaning of an alpha male, at least for the purposes of this discussion. You arguing over how I define an "alpha male" is like going to England and telling them they can't call a "French Fry" a "chip."
I love how people make unwarranted assumptions about the people in my life when they don't even know me. Neither of these girls had self-esteem issues.
How is that an unwarranted assumption? It's not. I'm drawing a direct conclusion from the facts you gave me. Any girl who lets a guy treat her badly is lacking in self-respect for herself.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
When something is too available, we subconsciously downgrade it.
This doesn't mean the reverse is true. If I'm dating someone and she's never able to make time for me, my interest in her isn't going to increase. If anything, it'll decrease because I'll feel like I don't matter to her. I'll move on because I know there are plenty of other women out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Whether you'll "waste your time on her" (pre-emptive rejection, huh Denny?) does not change the fact that she's hot. On the flip side, if a girl is nice, caring, intelligent, but homely, you would not notice her at all. You wouldn't "waste your time" on the homely girl either, Denny, now would you?
And what's your point? Of course looks matter. But you act like that's all that matters in evaluating how attractive a woman is to a man. Too bad the rest of us know there's more to it than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
If he attracts lots of hot girls, then yes, he's an alpha male. The concept is relatively straight forward, Denny. It doesn't require much intellectual nimbleness to equate "alpha male" with "attractiveness and distinguish that from your own understaning of an alpha male, at least for the purposes of this discussion. You arguing over how I define an "alpha male" is like going to England and telling them they can't call a "French Fry" a "chip."
Wrong. He's still not alpha no matter how many times you want to claim otherwise. Seriously, go look up the definitions of these words cause you really sound like you don't have a clue.
What I don't agree with is when guys say that all women are attracted to jerks and swagger, because we're not. Choosing a string of abusive boyfriends is more likely to be the result of daddy issues, not some involuntary tingling because bad boys are so irresistible.
Exactly. The men who believe that all women are attracted to jerks are guilty of using flawed logic. They're looking only at what the men have in common. But what about the women who end up with those jerks? And what about the women who don't? If I see someone like Pam Anderson with Tommy Lee, I don't see that as evidence that women are attracted to bad boys. I see it as evidence that some women are just messed in the head.
OK, I'm with you so far, except we might bicker over "oftentimes." But anyway, why do guys attempt to be alphas by adopting or mimicking the jerkiness, evasiveness, violence, etc., rather than the intelligence and creativity? Is it just easier to do? Why not set the bar higher for the type of woman they would like to catch?
Because they're too stupid to know any other way. There is one truth that I've repeatedly said on this forum, and that is that you can be an alpha male without being the "bad boy", but you can't be a "bad boy" without being an alpha male. The later is the path of least resistance, but they are also the weaker of the alpha males, generally speaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane
False. A woman's ranking on a 1-10 scale is defined not only by her looks, but also by her attitude
Hey doc, you might want to back off stating that as a fact seeing as how that would ultimately be up to the person doing the rating, don't ya think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I love how people make unwarranted assumptions about the people in my life when they don't even know me. Neither of these girls had self-esteem issues. They both lead focused, structured, and rather conscientious lives (Girl A is now married and is a software designer; Girl B works for a non-profit and dates a decent guy I know through mutual friends). There was no drama with either of these girls, although I have dated girls who were prone to drama.
You'll have to forgive Doctor Denny, he has a serious inferiority complex towards alpha males and attempts to compensate with his psuedo-intellectualism and pop psychology threads.
Quote:
There's no getting around basic human psychology. When something is too available, we subconsciously downgrade it. There's nothing groundbreaking about that.
Pretty much. It's basic market values. Even more effective in women since they want to bang the guys all the other girls want to bang.
As a young woman, I would imagine that I know a little more about what we want than a man does. I also don't claim to know what every woman wants or every man. I don't believe that my standards are lower just because I am young. Also, I make a lot more than the entry level salary that was mentioned on this thread. I hang out with young women in a similar income bracket, and we don't need a man to buy us anything or take us anywhere. We look for more in a man than his income, car, or other material possessions.
Because they're too stupid to know any other way. There is one truth that I've repeatedly said on this forum, and that is that you can be an alpha male without being the "bad boy", but you can't be a "bad boy" without being an alpha male. The later is the path of least resistance, but they are also the weaker of the alpha males, generally speaking.
Hey doc, you might want to back off stating that as a fact seeing as how that would ultimately be up to the person doing the rating, don't ya think?
You'll have to forgive Doctor Denny, he has a serious inferiority complex towards alpha males and attempts to compensate with his psuedo-intellectualism and pop psychology threads.
It's also possible that not everybody resonates with Internet hyperbole and/or main stream, commercialized society. While the majority (>50%) might hold to these designations, there are still a heck load of folk out there that don't, won't, and can't buy into it. People can be complex and layered. As mentioned, some are simply more intelligent, have greater depth, and involvement in life. Their voice is just as valid. So, while the lot of you self-proclaimed alpha's might rule your roost, it's not as if those on a different trip are going to employ any of it as some kind of personal rubric.
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The only conclusion I would draw from your example is that there are some women who lack self-respect.
