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All I said was that attractiveness is subjective. For example, I find picking on other people to be unattractive. If I witnessed Paul Walker doing that, I'd be turned off.
And if I saw Scarlett Johansson eating rhinoceros dung, I'd be turned off. We should just go ahead and get all of the hypotheticals out of the way. What if Scarlett Johansson turned out to be a man? What if she smothered babies? What if she assassinated Malcolm X? What if she voted for George W. Bush?
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Originally Posted by JustJulia
I'm not sure why you react to moderate statements like "attractiveness is subjective" and "people have different tastes" as extreme.
My problem is more or less with you attempting to push my position to the extreme. It's like me saying that "homicide is against the law" and then you saying, "No, no, self-defense is an exception to homicide," as if I didn't know that already. And as if that exception has any bearing on the general proposition. In this case, the general proposition is that Paul Walker is attractive, and the possibility that three women may find a stupid, toothless janitor to be more appealing does not change the common sense understanding that a rich actor will in 999,999,999 out of 1,000,000,000 cases be considered more attractive than a stupid, toothless janitor. We might as well argue over what the color "orange" looks like since some people perceive colors differently as well.
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Originally Posted by JustJulia
I agree with your comment about the attractiveness of power, as long as you are not saying that any form of power is attractive to any woman.
Nope, I didn't say that at all. I said that "women are attracted to power in all of its forms." You shouldn't interpret that to mean that every woman is attracted to all forms of male power.
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Originally Posted by JustJulia
The short answer is that crazy men act on their craziness in other ways. You don't really see the phenomenon of women shooting up schools or post office, or crashing airplanes into things. We are talking about a very small segment of society ... you know, the extremes.
Interesting point. But it still does not get us any closer to answering my question (or yours, for that matter). While women who chase inmates and men who kill people are the extremes, I think it's more a difference of degree than kind. Men, much more than women, have a proclivity to commit violence (gotta love testosterone), but this doesn't mean that most men would go so far as to live out "Grand Theft Auto" in reality. We can get our fix by doing something more socially acceptable, like playing football. Women are attracted to male power, but this does not mean that most women would go so far as to write love letters to first-degree murderers. They can get their fix by dating more socially acceptable men, like meatheads who get into bar fights.
Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't possible - it's the dream that keeps me going.
As for friend gazelle - although they might not go through what to us seems a logical, conscious decision-making and rationalization process, instinct fills in the gaps. If the gazelle's young are threatened or has its back against the proverbial wall, I believe instinct will bring out the courage and eliminate the fear.
It's like training for facing a person with a gun - you can't indulge your "human" mind because it's been improperly conditioned for that occasion. You need to go "animal".
You are a talking (typing) contradiction. For a person to actively work to overcome a phobia, they have to know they have the phobia in the first place. In other words, they are conscious of what's going in their cerebellum (and that they even have a cerebellum). This is completely different than acting on instinct despite the presence of danger. Monkeys (and people, too, unfortunately) will plunge to their deaths from burning buildings because of instinct.
You are a talking (typing) contradiction. For a person to actively work to overcome a phobia, they have to know they have the phobia in the first place. In other words, they are conscious of what's going in their cerebellum (and that they even have a cerebellum). This is completely different than acting on instinct despite the presence of danger. Monkeys (and people, too, unfortunately) will plunge to their deaths from burning buildings because of instinct.
I think we're grasping different ends of the elephant here ...
I don't know ... the way I see all this is that the "alpha-" and "beta-" terms originated solely to describe behavioral characteristics of animals = pack behavior, courting, pecking-order stuff. Co-opting the phrase to apply it to humans, although common practice from back in the 70's (? - not documented - just a personal opinion based on memories of a slew of alpha and beta books at the time), just brings us down to the level of pack animals.
i agree... but humans are a type of animal, are we not?
what i find puzzling is how so many (mainly younger) women will try and glorify those aggressive, b*tchy aspects of their personality as if it were an asset.
What I find amusing is how many men think any woman who doesn't agree with him or defer to him or put up with his crap is a b*tch.
Does every single woman on Planet Earth find Paul Walker attractive? No. Do a whole bunch of women find Paul Walker attractive? Yes. Are there more hot women that find Paul Walker attractive than Denny Crane? Without question. Does that make Paul Walker more "alpha" than Denny Crane? Absolutely.
Was that supposed to be a dig at me? If so, it's pretty lame and says more about you since you actually thought to include me in your hypothetical. And once again, you demonstrate that you're clueless on what the term alpha means. Whether women find Paul Walker more attractive than some other guy doesn't make him more alpha. Your logic is backwards. The more alpha you are, the more attractive you are. Not the other way around.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
It's funny that when a man falls for an attractive woman who's a "mean girl," the assumption is that he's shallow and superficial and ruled by his [beep]. Rarely do you hear anyone say that he has mommy issues, or that he has low self-esteem, or that he doesn't know his value. For the most part, we all accept that he's with the hot girl who's a b**** because, well, she's hot.
We accept that he either doesn't see her ugly personality or just doesn't care because, in his mind, her looks make up for it. But it still comes down to self-esteem. If a guy is willing to put up with a b**** just because she's hot, then it suggests he doesn't think he can do better. In fact, a lot of guys will simply label him whipped.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
But when a woman falls for a thug, a killer, a cad, or a "badboy," the assumption is that she lacks self-worth, she has self-esteem issues, or better yet, she's trapped. Rarely does anyone say that those types of guys turn her on. We can't help what and who we like, and since women are attracted to male power in all of its forms, there are always going to be women who literally run after guys that society considers to be "bad."* Women are often ruled by their nether regions as much if not more than men.
More inverted logic. Because there are women who flock to bad boys, you assume that it must be there jerkiness that they find attractive. Attraction isn't just dictated by what the other person has to offer. It's also reflective of what's going on with you. Go back to your example of the guy who's with the hot b****. Why's he with her? Why doesn't he find someone equally hot who's also more likable as a person? The answer is that he doesn't think he can, which further suggests that he doesn't think very highly of himself.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
*Hence, women who run after convicted killers. You don't really see this phenomenon in men. You could argue that they run after killers because they "don't know any better" and they lack self-esteem, but plenty of men also lack self-esteem and yet you don't see men writing letters to female inmates. Unless, of course, you want to argue that more women have more self-esteem issues than men, a claim that is not verifiable in the least, and which I find to be dubious. The other argument would be that those women are just crazy, but again, there are a lot of crazy men, and those men aren't writing letters to female inmates in significant numbers. Why is that?
So because men don't write letters to female inmates, you're automatically concluding that people's attraction to bad boys can't be the result of low self-esteem? A guy with low self-esteem doesn't have to go to a woman's prison to find women who'll treat him badly. He can find plenty right here on the outside.
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Originally Posted by SifuPhil
I don't know ... the way I see all this is that the "alpha-" and "beta-" terms originated solely to describe behavioral characteristics of animals = pack behavior, courting, pecking-order stuff. Co-opting the phrase to apply it to humans, although common practice from back in the 70's (? - not documented - just a personal opinion based on memories of a slew of alpha and beta books at the time), just brings us down to the level of pack animals.
The only co-opting going on here is one poster who seems to think alpha and beta have to do with looks when, as you correctly pointed out, those terms are solely used to describe behavior.
Stan makes a good point, tho. Is it possible (in the eyes of some) for a compassionate, giving, good woman to be assertive, not take shyte from men, etc, and not be deemed a b*tch?
Denny, question for you. Do you consider yourself to be an alpha male.
Yes or no.
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A guy with low self-esteem doesn't have to go to a woman's prison to find women who'll treat him badly. He can find plenty right here on the outside.
