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Then what is the purpose of advising to date someone who "loves" more (in an attachment sense) instead of simply advising to date someone who makes and keeps you happy? Why is measuring the cause easier than measuring the effect? Especially when the cause is someone else's psyche, hardly an easy thing to observe and measure.
Note also that fear of loss as the primary motivator may come with side effects of jealousy and insecurity.
We can wax poetic about the virtues and ideals of love here, if you like. But love is very subjective and hard to quantify, as we have noted.
You can quantify behavior though. It is directly observable.
I'm just trying to give practical feedback to the OP, here, rather than wax poetical about love.
One way love can be measured is through behavior. If the person's behavior is exhibiting that they hold the person in high esteem, are treating them well, abiding by their boundaries, etc., then I call that "love." Its really hard to treat someone poorly if you value them and don't want to lose them.
I don't call abusive relationships "love." Some people equate abuse with love, but its not. Its abuse. Just like jealousy doesn't mean a person loves you, it just means they are insecure and controlling.
How do you even quantify that? If there is an obvious imbalance then it’s not love from that person just appreciation for being loved.
If two people love each other it would be impossible to quantify who loves more since both deeply care about each other I would hope.
The idea of even bringing it up or thinking about it means you’re more worried about the balance of power and not being vulnerable in a relationship.
I couldn’t be with someone if I felt they weren’t that in love with me and it was more about how I felt about them as to why they are with me.
We can wax poetic about the virtues and ideals of love here, if you like. But love is very subjective and hard to quantify, as we have noted.
You can quantify behavior though. It is directly observable.
I'm just trying to give practical feedback to the OP, here, rather than wax poetical about love.
One way love can be measured is through behavior. If the person's behavior is exhibiting that they hold the person in high esteem, are treating them well, abiding by their boundaries, etc., then I call that "love." Its really hard to treat someone poorly if you value them and don't want to lose them.
I don't call abusive relationships "love." Some people equate abuse with love, but its not. Its abuse. Just like jealousy doesn't mean a person loves you, it just means they are insecure and controlling.
I don't agree. I think that many an abuser did feel a huge amount of love, and a deep fear of loss. But that's getting into psychology, because that is a person who has a lot of insecurity and fear of abandonment...and who may feel sure that it will inevitably happen. They become controlling and abusive, out of that fear. I would not claim that a mentally unwell person is not capable of love, though their mental problems may drive destructive behavior, and their love can be toxic to another person.
I believe that it is very possible to love someone in an extremely unhealthy way.
My ex valued me more than anyone or anything in his life and definitely did not want to lose me, yet he often treated me poorly. In a way, I always felt like it was a test. Like if I stayed with him even when he was being awful to me, it was what he needed for "proof" that I really loved him. If I suffered to stay with him, I must love him that much, or something.
I always thought that his issues came from his upbringing, and I'm sure some of that did, but now that my son actually manifested legit mental illness and I see some similarities and they told me THAT is hereditary...I feel reasonably sure that there is a genetic brain chemistry component there, too. All sorts of stuff influences how we act.
You might look at a description of his behavior, and say, "that is not love" but man...to him it sure was. It was big and intense and passionate, and also full of desperation and fear and insecurity. But ya know, I couldn't even begin to tell you what his "love languages" might have been, he tried everything under the sun to get me to love him and to express how he felt. Just so happens that was in between bouts of humiliating me, isolating me, destroying my stuff, and later on, threats and violence. I'm sure that a lot of abusers who go through cycles, actually do love (in their own subjective way) their victims and don't want to lose them.
You can quantify behavior though. It is directly observable.
I'm just trying to give practical feedback to the OP, here, rather than wax poetical about love.
One way love can be measured is through behavior. If the person's behavior is exhibiting that they hold the person in high esteem, are treating them well, abiding by their boundaries, etc., then I call that "love." Its really hard to treat someone poorly if you value them and don't want to lose them.
The post I responded to originally (quoted below) stated that you would quantify love by "how afraid someone is to lose someone else" and I disagree with that. On a practical level, I think it is difficult to implement, and likely to lead to undesired outcomes. Your new definition based on someone's behavior towards someone else (admiration, respect, kindness, etc.) is much better!
Which brings us back to the topic. I believe that both people in a relationship should hold each other in high esteem, treat each other well, and respect each other's boundaries. This is what you are calling love, correct? I do not see why it would be better for one person to love (in this sense) their partner more than is reciprocated??
Quote:
Originally Posted by moongirl00
The way I quantify love when I answered the OP is how afraid someone is to lose someone else, hence, how motivated they are to please their partner.
The post I responded to originally (quoted below) stated that you would quantify love by "how afraid someone is to lose someone else" and I disagree with that. On a practical level, I think it is difficult to implement, and likely to lead to undesired outcomes. Your new definition based on someone's behavior towards someone else (admiration, respect, kindness, etc.) is much better!
Which brings us back to the topic. I believe that both people in a relationship should hold each other in high esteem, treat each other well, and respect each other's boundaries. This is what you are calling love, correct? I do not see why it would be better for one person to love (in this sense) their partner more than is reciprocated??
In a perfect world, each couple would love each other equally. But given how hard it is to find someone you love in the first place, and for that person to love you back, its even harder to expect that you will have the exactly equal amount of love for each other. It usually works out that one person has stronger feelings.
I argue that its better for the man to be the one with the stronger feelings, because of the fact that women are more vulnerable, meaning, women get pregnant, they catch STIs easier, they tend to value commitment and emotional closeness more.
A woman getting smitten with a man, and that man being the one who can walk away easier... well, that woman is going to have a harder time getting that man to respect her boundaries, because she is the one who doesn't want to walk away. She is more likely to put up with poor behavior from him.
We are entering a circular argument now because I made this exact point already and am just repeating myself now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
I don't agree. I think that many an abuser did feel a huge amount of love, and a deep fear of loss. But that's getting into psychology, because that is a person who has a lot of insecurity and fear of abandonment...and who may feel sure that it will inevitably happen. They become controlling and abusive, out of that fear. I would not claim that a mentally unwell person is not capable of love, though their mental problems may drive destructive behavior, and their love can be toxic to another person.
I believe that it is very possible to love someone in an extremely unhealthy way.
My ex valued me more than anyone or anything in his life and definitely did not want to lose me, yet he often treated me poorly. In a way, I always felt like it was a test. Like if I stayed with him even when he was being awful to me, it was what he needed for "proof" that I really loved him. If I suffered to stay with him, I must love him that much, or something.
I always thought that his issues came from his upbringing, and I'm sure some of that did, but now that my son actually manifested legit mental illness and I see some similarities and they told me THAT is hereditary...I feel reasonably sure that there is a genetic brain chemistry component there, too. All sorts of stuff influences how we act.
You might look at a description of his behavior, and say, "that is not love" but man...to him it sure was. It was big and intense and passionate, and also full of desperation and fear and insecurity. But ya know, I couldn't even begin to tell you what his "love languages" might have been, he tried everything under the sun to get me to love him and to express how he felt. Just so happens that was in between bouts of humiliating me, isolating me, destroying my stuff, and later on, threats and violence. I'm sure that a lot of abusers who go through cycles, actually do love (in their own subjective way) their victims and don't want to lose them.
We just have to agree to disagree here. You interpret his behavior as love. I interpret it as abuse.
Love imo is better defined as treating someone well, making them happy, caring for their well being.
Interesting that this thread would be front and center when I looked this forum up for the first time in about a year. I have been mildly struggling with this concept in my current relationship. I think my dynamic also is influenced by my last long-term relationship. In my previous relationship I thought I found my soul-mate. She excited me and had this perfect personality for me where she was a not over the top, but had a little bit of a spontaneous wild side. I thought she was every bit into me as I was to her. I think that stems from my high self-esteem though rather than reality. Unfortunately she had many issues with PTSD from the trauma of childhood sexual abuse and after 20 years together she decided she needed to be on her own and could not have sexual intimacy in her life any longer. The first 7 years of our relationship were glorious, followed by 13 years of dishonesty and possible affairs on her part. I never caught her in anything more than inappropriate conversations, and we always moved past it, but it was a periodic struggle.
I met someone about 18 months ago that is the polar opposite of my ex-wife. She is one of the nicest, most caring people I have ever met. The small problem I have is that I am to her what my ex-wife was to me. I am a revelation after she was in a marriage for 20 years that lacked the intense passion that she feels towards me. I don't relish her feelings towards me at all. I wish she was more on my level as far as expressing feelings. But she isn't and I am learning to accept that. She lived a pretty boring suburban existence before meeting me. I have introduced her to a circle of people and a life that is very exciting for her. I seem to bring much more into the relationship in that regard. I am a foodie and music lover that has introduced her to food she had never experienced and pre pandemic we attended several concerts together. So I am this guy that has opened her eyes to a world she wanted but thought she wasn't supposed to have once she had kids. I do love her, but it is not the same passionate, "where have you been all my life" love that she has for me. My love is more of an appreciative love. I am attracted to her and our sex life is really good. But with me she is experiencing sex on a level that she didn't even know was possible. I am experiencing sex simply on par with what I had with my wife. So it is impossible for me to feel the same passion that she feels for me, because I have felt it before.
In my case I think it is possible for the love that is felt to be unequal or at least different. Especially at my age (53). I think this situation would bother me more if I was in my 20's or 30's, I would fear that I was settling. But now I look at life differently. She fits into my life perfectly and accepts all my flaws. I love many things about her. All my friends that have met her love her and tell me the same thing. . . "you better not **** this up". I recognize and appreciate how awesome she is. Do I wish I looked at her and got weak in the knees like she gets with me? Of course I do. But who knows if I will ever find that again?
It sounds like you're in a really great relationship and you're happy with her, yet there seems to be an undertone of dissatisfaction because you don't feel enough passion?
In a perfect world, each couple would love each other equally. But given how hard it is to find someone you love in the first place, and for that person to love you back, its even harder to expect that you will have the exactly equal amount of love for each other. It usually works out that one person has stronger feelings.
Why do you say that it's hard to find someone who you hold in high esteem, treat well, and respect their boundaries? Isn't that how you said you would measure love? And isn't that mostly a choice you can make, not a feeling over which you have no control?
Why do you say that it's hard to find someone who you hold in high esteem, treat well, and respect their boundaries? Isn't that how you said you would measure love? And isn't that mostly a choice you can make, not a feeling over which you have no control?
Splitting hairs now. The behavior is going to be motivated by a feeling, of course. So love is the feeling that drives the motivation behind the behavior.
I just don't think writing poetry about feelings is going to help OP get her questions answered.
My only point is to look at the person's behavior.
If they are treating you well = love.
If they are treating you poorly = not love.
Find someone who treats you well, holds you in high esteem, respects your boundaries, etc.
And, yes, men should look for this as well. It doesn't go only one direction.
But men are less physically vulnerable to the effects of unrequited love. A man doesn't get pregnant and then get left holding the bag while his partner happily gallops off with someone new. Women are the ones that get pregnant and left, when the man doesn't love her enough to commit to her and their family, and treat them well.
Splitting hairs now. The behavior is going to be motivated by a feeling, of course. So love is the feeling that drives the motivation behind the behavior.
This is the root of our disagreement. I believe that people are responsible for their behavior and capable of treating others with respect. It is certainly possible to enjoy feelings of attachment and lust within a loving relationship, but lasting love like what you are talking about is motivated by shared values and goals and compatibility.
I don't think there's anything poetic about my posts in this thread... I am actually being very concrete. Your advice to find someone who treats you well is entirely correct, but also rather obvious, no? And not an answer to the question. My answer is that finding someone who treats you well is important, and treating that person well is important. Seeking asymmetry in the relationship is counterproductive.
Well, Moongirl, in a way my analysis of my ex's emotional state and behaviors is a way for me to understand things and make better choices.
Because here's the thing...EVEN THOUGH I felt very sure that he loved me, and even though he showed it and said it in a thousand ways, and even though I am a compassionate person with a lot of empathy and I don't want to hurt someone, if they are harmful to me, they are harmful to me. In the end, rather than trying to deny something that my heart and mind said was true in a lot of ways, I accepted it and did the right thing regardless.
It could not matter, if my feelings never felt as intense as his, and if I failed to express the love he craved, and even if I drove him to it, he still did not control his bad behaviors, his actions, and that was his job to do.
I have personally found, I have little control over how I feel, but far more control over what I say and do. I don't know if that is true for everyone. But I think we should all strive for control over our words and actions.
But I can tell you, although I was not so warm and passionate towards him in a positive way, I still was never cruel. He was sometimes cruel. And yet when we parted, I got on with my life and he has been devastated for years. The loss was absolutely harder for him than it was for me. Sometimes the more you love, the more it HURTS when you don't get loved back. And some people due to their psychology, lash out when they are hurting. Ill treatment does not only come from cold and calculating sociopath types. It can be impulsive, rather than planned, and it often is.
I guess the point of me going on about all of this, is that I am wary of situations of imbalanced emotional investment. And if I had known long ago, how GOOD it could be to have a more even level of love in a relationship, and that it is possible, I would have held out for it, perhaps. What I've got now would have been worth waiting for if I'd known it existed.
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