How are ambitious women perceived? (dating, wife, how to, married)
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This is something I've often wondered about, being a woman. How are ambitious or overachieving women perceived by both men and women (women in terms of deciding whether or not they want to be friends with an ambitious woman). How much ambition is too much? Is this intimidating to others? Have you ever decided not to pursue a relationship--friendship or otherwise--because someone was overly ambitious?
I don't care if my friends are ambitious. I have friends who are waaaaayyy smarter than me and who LOVE the thrill of the deal. However, if a person is so "ambitious" that they are too good to take the time to be a friend then I have no use for them - their priorities do not mesh with mine. But this goes for a man or a woman.
I can't speak for men, but ambition can be a double edged sword. I have been told, that men don't like to be made to think that they are "obsolete." A woman can be ambitious, but it could mean she's neglecting her man... there's always some less ambitious woman who wants to please in a way that an overly ambitious woman doesn't have time for... It sucks (sorry for the wording, but it's the best that I can do...) but sometimes the smartest, most ambitious (man/woman) doesn't always make the best partner... So balance is essential to relationships and such...
This is something I've often wondered about, being a woman. How are ambitious or overachieving women perceived by both men and women (women in terms of deciding whether or not they want to be friends with an ambitious woman). How much ambition is too much? Is this intimidating to others? Have you ever decided not to pursue a relationship--friendship or otherwise--because someone was overly ambitious?
Oh, what a fun topic to discuss.
I deal with this issue all the time. I'm a corporate and tax attorney, I'm a very young partner, and I have clientele even senior partners can't match.
Of course I'm ambitious, but like all intelligent women I've gone to great pains to hide it. I don't flaunt my victories, and I always seek ways to make other people I've had to harshly deal with feel grateful that I at least left their kidneys intact. The fact of the matter is, people like nothing more than to see powerful, ambitious women knocked down hard.
I think on the whole I'm perceived in a neutral sense. Clients think "Wow, that's nice, they white-knuckled those pens when she sat down". Being naturally tall I also play that to my advantage, and I think it becomes part of the whole ambitious image thing.
Ambitious women are usually perceived in a negative sense. Obviously they have male-issues, otherwise why would they care so much about their career? Yeah, I saw that on Lifetime, it must be true, all ambitious women have like, father issues and stuff. Or it's a sad thing. How sad, that she's all alone and snuggles up to her cold hard career ambitions every night!
To sum this all up, look at the stereotypes and the cultural stories we have about ambitious women. The ambitious woman who is single and financially rewarded but isn't sexy or approachable has the "let's knock her down" ending, where the justice system completely screws her over without due regard... Or her male peers destroy her career. (Martha Stewart, Leona Helmsley, just to name a few.)
Then there's the James Bond Super Secret Agent woman, and her story is that she's never defeated. But she is sexy, and it doesn't matter what she actually does (sexy lawyer, sexy criminal, sexy banker), because she's sexy and that's all that matters. You're not being defeated, you're just losing to sexiness and that's... sexy.
And of course, now that we're coming upon the Christmas season once again, we have the Never Been Touched Vestil Corporate Virgin Ms. Scrooge story, where the successful corporate woman is clearly evil because there's no man in her life, and that's a sin and a tragedy, dontchaknow, and by shutting out men she's shut out all that matters and clearly has never ever found love in any other place. Because if her place in our minds isn't comfortably controlled by a male presence, she's obviously in need of some ghost whose opinion she didn't ask for to point her in the right direction (her lost male love) and oh, like, some other stuff (estranged family, possibly some poor people she threw stones at, lost friendships). One should note that the NBTVCVMS was once sexy, but when she made the obviously wrong choice to put career ambitions ahead of the unquestionably more valuable man who wanted more of her time, she's no longer sexy. Just old.
I think there is a difference between ambition and blind ambition. In my book, ambition doesn't mean to the exclusion of a relationship or family, neither does it surpass the relationship in priority.
People in my professional life who didn't know me well were surprised when they saw me in wife or mother mode. And my mom was surprised when she saw me in "work" mode. (My DH never took part in my professional life) Yet since forever men have been able to play hardball by day in the business world and softy by night.
Well, I guess ambitious can come in a lot of forms. I happen to think Roz Savage (google her or check out her blog) is an ambitious woman. She is setting out to become the first woman to row solo across the Pacific ocean from California to Australia. She used to work a corporate job in London, but then she realized she wasn't happy, and so she left. Now she has very few belongings and a freedom that I envy.
I admire women who succeed in the business world. I like their strength and how assertive they are. They have qualities I sometimes wish I had. But it's not my world. I personally don't care about all that corporate stuff. I interact with some big companies right now, and dislike it immensely. I'd rather have nothing ever to do again with the corporate world, and I'm working to try and get out of it one day.
It's not a good thing in most of the south to be an ambitious woman. Men still look at women as helpless or the barefoot and pregnant attitude.
The women that are ambitious are looked upon as being bitchy or trying to be a man.
It's probably like this in a lot of places but I think the south is the worst for it.
doglover29 How are ambitious women perceived?
This is something I've often wondered about, being a woman. How are ambitious or overachieving women perceived by both men and women (women in terms of deciding whether or not they want to be friends with an ambitious woman). How much ambition is too much? Is this intimidating to others? Have you ever decided not to pursue a relationship--friendship or otherwise--because someone was overly ambitious?
Ambitious women have a flip side... effeminate men. I can not separate the two. Both are "products" of genes and environment.
My "blue" thinking is somewhat skewed towards roles we are best suited for. Of course I do not claim to have a monopoly on what those roles may be, but I have taken a few steps in this life and most were with my eyes wide open. Men and women are uniquely formed and thereby have unique functions within gender limits and roles. Again... I do not claim infinite knowledge on these roles but I can claim history for support. There is a 10-80-10 divide on most gender related issues. This is my take.... from my experiences.....
10% ambitious, 80% conforming, 10% submissive. The percentages remain the same for both men and women but the way this manifests itself is vastly different.
We often think of ambitious women as having a "business" tendency, or shall I say... that a corporate venue provides and outlet for her natural personality. This is probably less true than more true... and purely andectodal on my part, both in observing and conclusion. However, laws and rules within the corporate world do provide one of many conduits for women to be ambitious. I have perceived (confession) some women as having special protection and consideration... but that is also true of men. Sometimes my observations proved correct and other times incorrect.... and again, for men, same thing. I believe the issue of contention would be more pronounced in an interpersonal relationships... primarily as man and wife. Non marital issues can easily be remedied by leaving ... and hopefully not so within marriage. However the OP asks....
Quote:
" in terms of deciding whether or not they want to be friends with an ambitious woman"
so this is where I'll focus my opinion.
I do not see an ambitious woman as a negative but rather I look to see if she personally manages her natural tendencies to be ambitious. A woman who manages herself in a forthright manner, has confidently embraced who she is, by internally coming to terms with her limitations and strengths. Some might even use a old term like... "maturity" to describe such a woman. Think of the police... confronted with law-breakers... do they shoot everyone? or access the situation and respond accordingly? Hopefully choice #2. So as a man I observe a woman who does not go beyond "my" boundaries and becomes too.... _________ fill in the blank. Different circumstances have different boundaries, and ambition exercised in different applications has different responses. I hope I'm making my point clear, (from my blueness).
Now to clear up my mud....... we're talking about a 10% portion of gender, at best 20%. ...That is to say, who might be drawn to such a woman. That narrows the pool of available suitors (Yup... I'm an old guy). In support of any woman who has a "naturally ambitious nature"... do not compromise, but absolutely manage. I hope those who are ambitious do not see this as a conflict of terms, or an oxymoron. There should be no moral dilema. There is an ugliness about anyone who allows their personality to take over a relationship.... man or woman. This is lack of love and respect... manifested.
The natural tendency for an effeminate man is to seek a overtly ambitious woman. I hope a red flag is waving ... not good. She will become disillusioned with him, eventually. A equally confident man who has a quiet strength about him would not be intimidated by such a woman. A overtly confident man would be competitive with her, as well as she with him.
On a personal note... in response to some of the questions from the OP.......... I would never be drawn to the overly/overtly ambitious type... or any personality that is too ... anything. Yes...... I have ended a relationship that was with someone who was to ambitious because her ambition was always gonna be "her ambition" she had no idea what partnering meant. To much drama, to much risk, to much maintenance, just too much!
My freshman engineering classes were at least one-third female. All bright, amitious, unquestionably intelligent and oh so modern.
My graduating class was 65 white males, (and one black male) and one white female.
So what happened? Engineering school is HARD work. Not like on tv. Walk around a university about two weeks after the fall semester starts. A sea of wide-eyed, shell-shocked freshmen mumbling, "I'm stressing." The reality of the Path To Success.
Then once in the field of engineering one notes the few female engineers do not last. Despite the very best efforts of the Affirmative Action crowd. Get married, turn on the baby machine, do the mom-thing. And drop out. The males who climb the ladder get to work early, stay late, and are team players.
On that last point: How many girls play team sports as they are growing up? Some but the preferred activities are more individual in nature. Boys play flag and tackle football, baseball, &c., where they learn teamwork. And how to get up after being knocked down all the while not taking things personally. Do girls consider it acceptable to play with someone they absolutely detest? To boys it is part of the team mentality.
So are we forcing a round peg into a square hole?
Google "Bully Broads" to read about a program of a few years ago.
Last edited by shoghi; 11-28-2007 at 10:03 AM..
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