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You're comparing an abortion to a root canal!? "medical procedure that is done to serve a purpose" or a murder that feeds societies selfishness. I don't think it serves a purpose for the baby that's being killed. The point of seeing these disturbing pictures would be to prove that this is an actual life. Are you actually condoning murder in these circumstances?
Jeff mentioned that his daughter was born a month early. My daughter was born three weeks early. Many many babies are born premature. You're saying it would have been ok to abort these babies in the womb had they been full term? Do they not seem human enough even though they may be early?
Nobody doubts that an unborn baby/fetus is alive. That is patently obvious.
And once born, they have a right to life. Despite some people trying to imply that I am in favor of infanticide, I am not.
But before they are born, they do not have a right to life. The mother should be in control of this. Now obviously a very late term abortion should not be performed without dire necessity, and it wiould be my hope that the doctor would either refuse to do it, or the father would talk the mother out of it. But if the mother makes this decision, then she should absolutely, without restriction, have the right to do so.
So Jeff, Dreameyes, I am glad that your babies did fine. They were obviously wanted, and you would have kept them and raised them if they had gone to full term or been born even earlier. That is right and good. That is also completely irrelevant to the decision of another woman and whether or not she wants an abortion.
Nobody doubts that an unborn baby/fetus is alive. That is patently obvious.
And once born, they have a right to life. Despite some people trying to imply that I am in favor of infanticide, I am not.
But before they are born, they do not have a right to life. The mother should be in control of this. Now obviously a very late term abortion should not be performed without dire necessity, and it wiould be my hope that the doctor would either refuse to do it, or the father would talk the mother out of it. But if the mother makes this decision, then she should absolutely, without restriction, have the right to do so.
So Jeff, Dreameyes, I am glad that your babies did fine. They were obviously wanted, and you would have kept them and raised them if they had gone to full term or been born even earlier. That is right and good. That is also completely irrelevant to the decision of another woman and whether or not she wants an abortion.
Nobody doubts that an unborn baby/fetus is alive. That is patently obvious.
And once born, they have a right to life. Despite some people trying to imply that I am in favor of infanticide, I am not.
But before they are born, they do not have a right to life. The mother should be in control of this. Now obviously a very late term abortion should not be performed without dire necessity, and it wiould be my hope that the doctor would either refuse to do it, or the father would talk the mother out of it. But if the mother makes this decision, then she should absolutely, without restriction, have the right to do so.
So Jeff, Dreameyes, I am glad that your babies did fine. They were obviously wanted, and you would have kept them and raised them if they had gone to full term or been born even earlier. That is right and good. That is also completely irrelevant to the decision of another woman and whether or not she wants an abortion.
Well, I respectfully and strongly disagree. I'm glad to see that you, like any sane person, aren't really all about late term abortions, but should they be availablesimply as a form of birth control at such a late stage in pregnancy? Absolutely not. I can handle the whole 'woman's right to choose' argument early in pregnancy. But a 3rd term abortion is a simple matter of choice? Disgusting. That is a baby, and that's the end of it. Period. Have you seen pictures of late term abortion "results"? Anyone who can see that and still think it's just a "choice" has an inner morality compass that needs some serious repair.
I do agree that late term abortions are a terrible thing and but if it was an extreme circumstance such as rape or incest ( in very rare cases a pregnancy is not known until extremely late )or the mother's life was at risk ,I would still chose the mother's life.
I do agree that late term abortions are a terrible thing and but if it was an extreme circumstance such as rape or incest ( in very rare cases a pregnancy is not known until extremely late )or the mother's life was at risk ,I would still chose the mother's life.
But Moose, this argument is brought up far more often than the circumstance described actually happens! A circumstance like you have described happens almost never, and of course the entire situation would be different if it were so.
My buddy's ex-girlfriend had an abortion at 7 months along about 10 years ago. She did it simply as birth control. This happens far to often, and is disgusting. And I'm saying this as one of the more "liberal" Christians on this forum! To clarify, I don't think abortions should be made illegal across the board, because I believe this would cause a health-crisis in this country (back-alley abortions, ect).
Look, you can disagree with abortion all you want on grounds of morality or religion. But when bringing God into it, just remember that there are millions of miscarriages that happen every year around the world. 15% of miscarriages are even unknown to the mother. This still happens at a point at which Christians determine "life" begins. If this is the case, then God is the most prolific abortionist in the history of mankind.
Don't wanna go to off topic here but I had to respond to this and I know you'll probably just say its a naive way to look at things but this is my opinion.
God is far far far far superior to any mortal and he knows all and sees all. If He wants to take a life for a reason unbeknowst to anyone on earth that is His right. He is certainly not an abortionist and I think its blesphemous for you to even say that. Why does God take the unborn or infants? Noone knows and noone will ever know (in this life) There is a much much bigger picture than us mere mortals can possibly fathom.
Don't wanna go to off topic here but I had to respond to this and I know you'll probably just say its a naive way to look at things but this is my opinion.
God is far far far far superior to any mortal and he knows all and sees all. If He wants to take a life for a reason unbeknowst to anyone on earth that is His right. He is certainly not an abortionist and I think its blesphemous for you to even say that. Why does God take the unborn or infants? Noone knows and noone will ever know (in this life) There is a much much bigger picture than us mere mortals can possibly fathom.
I have a question for kaykay or alpha or whoever wants to answer. I know this has been discussed to death but is there ever a time when abortion would be ok? I mean what about like the day after you found out you were pregnant? I know only God knows when "the quickening" occurs but when do you think? This is a sincere question and not meant to stir anything up.
We're just going around in circles I feel. I don't believe in your god ( or anybody else's for that matter) so I cannot look at this issue the same way a Christian would. As an atheist I look at it from a secular point of view . I just find it really puzzling that the Christian's point of view to explain anything difficult is "god moves in mysterious ways" and that we are somehow to accept anything from natural disasters to genetic disorders, famine, and miscarriages as an explanation for all these. If there was a god I really can't see him as a god of love but a god of wrath ( usually towards the innocents and the most vulnerable too). I have yet to see any of his love to his children. If this is blasphemous I do apologise but that is how I feel. I spent years trying to understand religions, trying to let in this god everybody spoke of , praying, and I have yet to see any sign of it or feel his presence at all. If religious people want to dispute my sincerity or put it down to "god , working in strange and exclusive ways" so be it. It just seems such a fantastic" get out of jail " card to me to say that we don't understand god but he knows best. I like to understand things and find it quite arrogant of god to exclude me and the rest of the world from his great plan.
If we are his children , he has not raised us very well. I would never presume to expect my children to listen to me without actually explaining to them why they were right/wrong/ or why things happened. I might not know all this answers( though god is supposed to) but at least I would not assume that anyone should follow me just because. That seems so presumptuous.
I think some issues are not even discussable between religious people and atheists as we don't have any common points of reference.
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