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I'm afraid, Ella, that the rest of your accusations of insults and meanness are about as valid as the indignation over the phrase 'zombie thread'.
You're just going to have to be able to read without your hackles already being up.
It's up to you. I can't understand why you are getting so offended, but maybe it's because I'm not abeliever. You used the term mental illness, not me. Human delusion or at least illusions is the way we work. mental illness is not the same thing at all. True, mental illness can lead to effects that are similar to extreme delusions, and deluded thought through either mental illness or extremes of irrationality can look alike.
Irrationality of the more extreme type which probably means different from the norm is the way we usually think. Because we don't teach sound reasoning, not in the school, the home or politics. And yet it is something that we need badly.
Now, if you applied sound reasoning, you would say that you recognize the feeling you has one, and since and now and have to give weight to the other explanations than a sort of vague mix of God and love.
But you think in terms of the delusion of Love having some sort of independent entity that is similar to or indeed part of 'God' (how much that reminds me of the Atheist blogger who turned theists - though some delusional and logically unsound idea that morality, so far from being a human convention, was a separate entity which appears to have turned into God' I do hope she has come to her senses).
Which brings me back to the delusion. We talks of losing ones' senses but it is all the same delusion and unreason, from the perfectly normal illusion that the buses always pass three on the other side before one comes this side...whichever side you are waiting, through religion and the delusions that the complexity of nature is proof of a designer, through prophecy and the similar belief in abduction, messages from space aliens and recall of former lives which are not mental illness, but an unreasoning delusion, or so the most likely explanation goes.
In fact it is rather yourself, slapping the idea of mental illness into people like the Hills, who truly believed that they had been abducted by space aliens, and that they rather allowed themselves to be led into flashback 'memories' in drams is only now being seen as the explanation, is dishing out accusations of mental illness on those who don't deserve it.
I can understand why you did it, but now you know better. There is a whole range of human delusion from the generally acceptable through the whack to the kind we can't tell from the products of real mental damage. But to leap from one to the other is taking offence at something I didn't say and you misunderstood.
(1) a perfect example of why anecdotes of supernatural claims are useless. We have no idea of what really happened.
good heavens. This is related to MY experience, not yours
P.s I'm not sure why you highlighted "zombie thread". But that just mean an old long forgotten one that someone bumped up with a recent post. If that was something cited as an example of my crossing the line, I suggest, dear lady, you go and sit quietly in front of a mirror and ask your self why you are looking for things to be offended about.
P.p s The love you feel you for your children is an illusion and a delusion. That does not make it real, needful and indeed praiseworthy. Practically everything in nature is an illusion and most of the ways we act and react are delusions. But I can see that you would have to set a lot of prejudices, mental baggage and assumptions aside and stop taking things personally or as attacks on yourself before we could even look at this aspect of reality.[/quote]
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I am sorry that I didn't know what a Zombie thread was and I got bent out of shape. I though it was one of your insults.
I apologize if I misunderstood any part of your post.
There is a whole range of human delusion from the generally acceptable through the whack to the kind we can't tell from the products of real mental damage. But to leap from one to the other is taking offence at something I didn't say and you misunderstood.
It may simply be a usage difference between the UK and the US, but "illusion" is my preference as it gets the essential idea across without the mental health connotations of "delusion". Delusion implies a sort of willing participation in an illusion; an illusion by itself simply tricks us into misperception. "Illusion" assumes less about the motivations and active participation of the person involved. "Delusion" for me conjures images of someone with fingers firmly planted in both ears, chanting "La la la, I can't hear you" to ward off some bit of info or other that violates their contrived reality.
Not that some theists in these precincts aren't deluded, but I think most are simply unaware of things like agency inference, confirmation bias, and the other mental artifacts that are common to humanity. Even we have to fight a tendency to be blind to these things in ourselves -- that is why they are so pernicious.
This is why I prefer to characterize Christian ideals as illusory rather than delusional -- at least as a default, until someone demonstrates ideation that society generally will regard as delusional. Most of them are in the "generally acceptable" range you describe in the above quote anyway. No one is likely to haul a Christian off to the nut-hatch because they talk to and worship an invisible friend in the sky. Some will cynically argue that it's not different than conversing with Fred the Invisible Talking Pink Pony, but the reality is that society has decided to tolerate one and not the other. In the common usage it's just not delusional. It's a protected personal belief. In my experience one gains little by playing the mental health card, even when at times it's technically justifiable.
I'm afraid, Ella, that the rest of your accusations of insults and meanness are about as valid as the indignation over the phrase 'zombie thread'.
You're just going to have to be able to read without your hackles already being up.
Ok. Thank you. I've got to learn not to read when I've been up all night.
It may simply be a usage difference between the UK and the US, but "illusion" is my preference as it gets the essential idea across without the mental health connotations of "delusion". Delusion implies a sort of willing participation in an illusion; an illusion by itself simply tricks us into misperception. "Illusion" assumes less about the motivations and active participation of the person involved. "Delusion" for me conjures images of someone with fingers firmly planted in both ears, chanting "La la la, I can't hear you" to ward off some bit of info or other that violates their contrived reality.
Not that some theists in these precincts aren't deluded, but I think most are simply unaware of things like agency inference, confirmation bias, and the other mental artifacts that are common to humanity. Even we have to fight a tendency to be blind to these things in ourselves -- that is why they are so pernicious.
This is why I prefer to characterize Christian ideals as illusory rather than delusional -- at least as a default, until someone demonstrates ideation that society generally will regard as delusional. Most of them are in the "generally acceptable" range you describe in the above quote anyway. No one is likely to haul a Christian off to the nut-hatch because they talk to and worship an invisible friend in the sky. Some will cynically argue that it's not different than conversing with Fred the Invisible Talking Pink Pony, but the reality is that society has decided to tolerate one and not the other. In the common usage it's just not delusional. It's a protected personal belief. In my experience one gains little by playing the mental health card, even when at times it's technically justifiable.
It may be my fault here that I ought to have some baggage about delusion and illusion. I tend to use illusion to refer to physical things like rainbows, colours and bookcases (a very common illusion ) and delusion to refer to the things that go on in our minds, in response to inner or outer stimuli, data input or instinct (sometimes hormonal) kicking in.
If my usage could be corrected, fine. I am not an expert but I like to set out out the way things seem to me on the best evidence I can get.
Christian beliefs can be illusory in evidence presented that does not stack up, and it can also be what I would call a delusion, as in the belief that one is getting divine inspiration and guidance in interpretation of scripture and the feeling of communion with God.
I repeat that I could be wrong, but there is compelling evidence for me that the guidance these people get from God is exactly similar to their own views and the god in the head is the one I talk to - but I know it's me. It is an illusion, but not a delusion.
I am sorry that I didn't know what a Zombie thread was and I got bent out of shape. I though it was one of your insults.
I apologize if I misunderstood any part of your post.
Most of it, I reckon. Look it seems to have got out of hand, and maybe best to call a halt. I was following a line of relevant thought up and expected it to rattle a few bars but was intended to me a rational discussion, not a flaming match. Maybe I am too used to my own way of writing and forget how it can come across to people the wrong way.
And your way of posting quotes comes across to me a rather hard work.
It's up to you. I can't understand why you are getting so offended, but maybe it's because I'm not a believer. You used the term mental illness, not me.
Except that I searched every page of this thread for the term "mental illness" and it only appeared as an accusation in your post.
The closest you can argue anyone coming to charges of mental illness is Arq's choice of "delusion" which I addressed in my last post. I don't think he means to imply Christians are all or even often mentally ill.
Except that I searched every page of this thread for the term "mental illness" and it only appeared as an accusation in your post.
The closest you can argue anyone coming to charges of mental illness is Arq's choice of "delusion" which I addressed in my last post. I don't think he means to imply Christians are all or even often mentally ill.
Mordant, sometimes the quotes get out of kilter. That quote with Ellas' name on was my remark, pointing out, as you did, that she first used the term.
It may be my fault here that I ought to have some baggage about delusion and illusion. I tend to use illusion to refer to physical things like rainbows, colours and bookcases (a very common illusion ) and delusion to refer to the things that go on in our minds, in response to inner or outer stimuli, data input or instinct (sometimes hormonal) kicking in.
If my usage could be corrected, fine. I am not an expert but I like to set out out the way things seem to me on the best evidence I can get.
Christian beliefs can be illusory in evidence presented that does not stack up, and it can also be what I would call a delusion, as in the belief that one is getting divine inspiration and guidance in interpretation of scripture and the feeling of communion with God.
I repeat that I could be wrong, but there is compelling evidence for me that the guidance these people get from God is exactly similar to their own views and the god in the head is the one I talk to - but I know it's me. It is an illusion, but not a delusion.
Comments?
I am referring to "illusions" in the sense that Virginia Wolfe commented upon them:
"Growing up is losing some illusions, in order to acquire others."
Or the song lyrics: "It's love's illusions I recall; I really don't know love at all".
In philosophy it has common meanings that don't have anything to do directly with optical illusions, and I maintain that it assumes less and is less inherently pejorative to say that someone believes in a thing that is illusory rather than that they are delusional about that thing.
I didn't think for a minute, of course, that you meant any insult or slight by it.
I am no expert either, just relating how / when I use the words and why, for what it is or is not worth.
As to your final point, that god's interactions with a person have a strong tendency to confirm and affirm what the person already wants to believe -- I totally agree. This is simple projection, something that virtually every human does, and I would not really classify it as delusional or truly pathological, though one can argue that thinking your thoughts are not your own is illusory.
I will admit that the dictionary definition of a delusion (a belief held with conviction despite strong evidence to the contrary) is tempting, but the problem is, garden-variety personal deities are unfalsifiable so anything based on a belief in a deity is simply projecting into a void, not working against actual evidence. None of us unbelievers is willing to say we can technically disprove god; it is the theist claiming he can prove him, at least to his personal satisfaction, that is making the extraordinary claim that he cannot actually support. For this reason also I think most theistic claims and beliefs fall short of delusion. They can lead to delusion, as with the Aussie mom who got religion and claimed technology is of the devil, shut off her electricity, warned people against cell phones, and ended up murdering eight of her nine children. But a lot of things can lead to delusional thinking; religion, organized or not, doesn't have an exclusive lock on that.
I'm curious if others have completely made their minds up like I have and if they went through a similar process. I was never really a believer but as a teenager I went through a period of a few years when I really wasn't sure what I thought. At about eighteen I realized that I was an atheist although I went through occational times during my early twenties when I wasn't quite sure. As I've gotten older I've grown stronger and stronger in my convictions and it's quite clear now that I truly don't believe in the existence of God. At this point in my life I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever and I haven't questioned my lack of belief in many years. If my beliefs could be laid out neatly on a chart it would appear as a smooth curve that represents my transition from not being sure to being an atheist.
Have those of you who are believers gone through a process like this or do some of you still have occational doubts? Also, the same question for the atheists, did you go through what I did due to your upbringing or do some of you wonder if you might be wrong?
My upbringing didn't have anything to do with it. Also, I didn't find God in the Bible. I found people's stories in the Bible of the belief in God and their experiences with that. To believe the Bible is God's word is to understand where inspiration comes from or from where a person believes that inspiration comes from. I do believe their inspiration came from God thus the Bible is God's word.
I accepted Christ as my Savior at age 9. What I knew at that age was that my grandfather had passed away and as I told my mother when she asked, 'why do you think you need to ask God to save you?' I replied to that, "I want to go where grandpa went, when I die". That was age 9.
In my teen years, I questioned, 'what if what they tell me is a lie and that when I die, that's it, there's nothing more'? My experience with that question and all that came to be after that I told in my first few posts on this forum. So rather than go through the whole story again...
Like you it was in my early twenties, unlike you, there was no denying as God showed Himself to me in a way I could not deny, but others might dispute as a mere coincidence. However, they are not me and thus can not relate to my experiences in life. At age 25 I was no longer a doubting Thomas, but one that beyond faith knew, not only does God exist, He also exists in my life as a Father and all that encompasses. He will catch me when I fall and He will discipline me when I fail to correct the wrongs I know I have committed.
Faith is in the knowing there is something greater than myself that exists in this world, that if I listen to people rather than God, I would never know it to be true.
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is the way we usually think. Because we don't teach sound reasoning, not in the school, the home or politics. And yet it is something that we need badly.
) and delusion to refer to the things that go on in our minds, in response to inner or outer stimuli, data input or instinct (sometimes hormonal) kicking in.
Look it seems to have got out of hand, and maybe best to call a halt. I was following a line of relevant thought up and expected it to rattle a few bars but was intended to me a rational discussion, not a flaming match. Maybe I am too used to my own way of writing and forget how it can come across to people the wrong way.
I Had a Wow Moment....
