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Imagine you have only two choices in what to believe...To live life to its fullest and then die and that's it...or...To live life to its fullest and have have eternal life thereafter...
In the absence of knowing either way, why not pick the better story? Fantasy and conjecture not withstanding...
That could be the answer to why so many call themselves believers...
That's all very well and nice, but it fails to address the issue that there is no evidence of any gods, nor the fact the gods humans have chosen to believe in are malevolent and malicious.
When I was a believer I never really saw many christians at peace and living life to the fullest. They were very concerned about their sinful nature and not meeting up to god's ridiculously high standards.
That's all very well and nice, but it fails to address the issue that there is no evidence of any gods, nor the fact the gods humans have chosen to believe in are malevolent and malicious.
When I was a believer I never really saw many christians at peace and living life to the fullest. They were very concerned about their sinful nature and not meeting up to god's ridiculously high standards.
Me either. Still dont. What I wonder is, if they are so excited about being with him in heaven and seeing all their old loves and family, why are they scared to die and pray to not die?
"I can understand how it might be possible for a man to look down upon the earth and be an atheist, but I can't conceive how a man could look up into the heavens and say there is no God." -- Abraham Lincoln
Meaninglessness is intolerable to thinking human beings. Life has to have meaning, and without a first cause to everything, life has little meaning. As the philosopher Goethe said, 'God is the only reality.' Obviously, God didn't need us, but he designed a pristine world for us to occupy. That we have been poor stewards of it is indisputable.
This OP and so many of the comments speak so loudly to peoples basic lack in understanding the nature of obedience. The OP doesn't seem to be asking why God needs our presence, but why God needs our obedience. Well, He doesn't need our obedience in the sense that the OP would suggest. Obedience is what we need. Why doesn't anyone ever question why a child needs to obey the parent that tells them not to stick their finger in a light socket? Do they ever question why a parent needs their child to obey them? Why does a parent need a child to clean their room, go to school, go to bed at a decent hour, and all the other things that a parent asks a child to do? Is it so that the parent can feel superior to the child or is it because the parent is trying to prepare the child for something? Like maybe life in a larger world than the confines of their home? Why do some parents encourage their children to be a part of sports, meeting weekly to engage in "rituals" with other kids on a regular basis? Why does a parent instruct the child to listen only to Mom/Dad and not their siblings or peers at school? Maybe it is to prevent the child from being led astray? Why would a parent ever reprimand a child? Maybe to correct bad behavior, that could harm the child and their siblings? Why would a parent ask a child to 1. "Love Mom/Dad with all your heart" and 2."love your siblings as yourself"? Maybe because, if they don't follow #1 then they will ignore #2? Maybe it's because if they disregard #1, then they won't listen to "don't talk to strangers", "don't text while driving", "don't take drugs", "don't touch the hot stove", "don't get mixed up with the wrong crowd", etc....? Is any of this starting to make some sense in why God needs us to listen to and obey Him? Is anyone beginning to understand that if we focus our love and adoration on Him that loves us and seeks the best for us, that maybe we won't focus our love an adoration on things that tear us down and lead to our ruin? Anyone starting to understand that the God of the universe loves humanity just as a benevolent parent loves their child?
This OP and so many of the comments speak so loudly to peoples basic lack in understanding the nature of obedience. The OP doesn't seem to be asking why God needs our presence, but why God needs our obedience. Well, He doesn't need our obedience in the sense that the OP would suggest. Obedience is what we need. Why doesn't anyone ever question why a child needs to obey the parent that tells them not to stick their finger in a light socket? Do they ever question why a parent needs their child to obey them? Why does a parent need a child to clean their room, go to school, go to bed at a decent hour, and all the other things that a parent asks a child to do? Is it so that the parent can feel superior to the child or is it because the parent is trying to prepare the child for something? Like maybe life in a larger world than the confines of their home? Why do some parents encourage their children to be a part of sports, meeting weekly to engage in "rituals" with other kids on a regular basis? Why does a parent instruct the child to listen only to Mom/Dad and not their siblings or peers at school? Maybe it is to prevent the child from being led astray? Why would a parent ever reprimand a child? Maybe to correct bad behavior, that could harm the child and their siblings? Why would a parent ask a child to 1. "Love Mom/Dad with all your heart" and 2."love your siblings as yourself"? Maybe because, if they don't follow #1 then they will ignore #2? Maybe it's because if they disregard #1, then they won't listen to "don't talk to strangers", "don't text while driving", "don't take drugs", "don't touch the hot stove", "don't get mixed up with the wrong crowd", etc....? Is any of this starting to make some sense in why God needs us to listen to and obey Him? Is anyone beginning to understand that if we focus our love and adoration on Him that loves us and seeks the best for us, that maybe we won't focus our love an adoration on things that tear us down and lead to our ruin? Anyone starting to understand that the God of the universe loves humanity just as a benevolent parent loves their child?
I am an adult, I don't need anyone telling me what I can and can't do. I do not need to be obedient like a dog.
If you read the bible you will see just how benevolent your god really is.
I am an adult, I don't need anyone telling me what I can and can't do.
Spoken like a typical teenager.
How many parents can attest to having a conversation with their teenager who thought they knew everything about everything?
Teenager to Dad: "you won't let me go to the prom with Billy?!!!! I hate you and you don't love me!" she then storms out.
Mom to Dad: "Why won't you let her go to the prom with Billy?"
Dad to Mom: "because, Billy is a 21 year old drug dealing pimp"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djuna
I do not need to be obedient like a dog.
No, you are a human being and can therefore disregard what someone tells you to do. Like the person, trapped in a burning car, who doesn't have to obey what the firefighter trying to save them, is telling them to do. Do you have to obey the geologist who tells you the volcano you live on is going to blow and you need to move? No, not at all. As for me and my dog, we will be watching the volcano erupt from our hotel room 6000 miles away.
God is not telling you what to do because He likes stupid pet tricks on Letterman. He tells you to do these things because you were born into a dying world, and you yourself were dying from the moment you were born. He wants to save you from the destruction you were born into, but He cannot save you against your will, because you are a fully grown adult able and were blessed with freedom of choice. You may not have chosen to be born into a world like this (God didn't choose that either, it was Adam/Eve that made that choice.) this, but He died to make sure you had a choice to escape it. No, you don't have to obey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djuna
If you read the bible you will see just how benevolent your god really is.
He's not, he's a despot.
I have read the Bible and it is full of stories of a benevolent God, battling a malevolent Satan, while dealing with people whom He has given the freedom of choice to. God is Love. Show me a story in the Bible that seems to contradicts that and I will show you how it doesn't. Whether you choose to accept that is a whole other story. A person can never be shown, what they refuse to see.
How many parents can attest to having a conversation with their teenager who thought they knew everything about everything?
Teenager to Dad: "you won't let me go to the prom with Billy?!!!! I hate you and you don't love me!" she then storms out.
Mom to Dad: "Why won't you let her go to the prom with Billy?"
Dad to Mom: "because, Billy is a 21 year old drug dealing pimp"
No, you are a human being and can therefore disregard what someone tells you to do. Like the person, trapped in a burning car, who doesn't have to obey what the firefighter trying to save them, is telling them to do. Do you have to obey the geologist who tells you the volcano you live on is going to blow and you need to move? No, not at all. As for me and my dog, we will be watching the volcano erupt from our hotel room 6000 miles away.
God is not telling you what to do because He likes stupid pet tricks on Letterman. He tells you to do these things because you were born into a dying world, and you yourself were dying from the moment you were born. He wants to save you from the destruction you were born into, but He cannot save you against your will, because you are a fully grown adult able and were blessed with freedom of choice. You may not have chosen to be born into a world like this (God didn't choose that either, it was Adam/Eve that made that choice.) this, but He died to make sure you had a choice to escape it. No, you don't have to obey.
I have read the Bible and it is full of stories of a benevolent God, battling a malevolent Satan, while dealing with people whom He has given the freedom of choice to. God is Love. Show me a story in the Bible that seems to contradicts that and I will show you how it doesn't. Whether you choose to accept that is a whole other story. A person can never be shown, what they refuse to see.
After being a christian for many, many years I was finally able to free my mind about 7-8 years ago.
I do not believe in your god or any gods.
My atheism was hard won, but worth it.
You might want to try some intellectual analysis one day, you might be surprised what the real truth is, because it is most certainly in an old myth.
After being a christian for many, many years I was finally able to free my mind about 7-8 years ago.
I do not believe in your god or any gods.
My atheism was hard won, but worth it.
You might want to try some intellectual analysis one day, you might be surprised what the real truth is, because it is most certainly in an old myth.
I too have been a Christian for many years, and I'm also an extremely analytical person. I would be very interested to hear your story if you would care to share it. Here or via PM. Why do you feel that your current belief is so much better than your past belief?
Imagine you have only two choices in what to believe...To live life to its fullest and then die and that's it...or...To live life to its fullest and have have eternal life thereafter...
In the absence of knowing either way, why not pick the better story? Fantasy and conjecture not withstanding...
That could be the answer to why so many call themselves believers...
Pascals wager does not work for me, this one life is enough thank you and no need to exist forever and then some.
Assuming for a moment that any of this is true, I would have many many questions of "where were you when...", that alone is going to keep me out of the fiery pits a long time.
I have made peace with my mortality, and the more I think about it, oblivion does not seem that bad. Actually existing forever even in the good place is rather daunting, more like a ground hog day that never ends.
Why is it that theists somehow think that a teenager is unable to come to a conclusion one way or the other? Hell I started questioning the xian myths when I was 8.
I guess my secular education had something to do with it.
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