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Whether any of those men are Atheists or not is really not important. Atheists certainly have just as much capacity as any human being to commit atrocities of horrendous magnitude. But, I find it difficult to believe that any of them would have been able to accomplish what they did without a religious fervor and mentality backing them up.
Stalin, Mao, Kim Sung and Castro all realized that the best approach was to create a cult dedicated to worshiping themselves. The trappings of religion are a powerful thing in the human psyche and all of them fully realized it. So all the time that they were actively crusading against organized religion and seeking to wipe it out, they were creating the most theocratic nations the world has ever seen, all centered on worshiping them as a virtual God on Earth.
As a Christian, I take the Holocaust and all atrocities before it done in the name of God and Christ as important lessons to learn from. Christendom should know now what not to do in the future. Atheism can take the same lessons from the horrors brought about by Marxism.
The point is not, "We're better than you." The point is to learn from past mistakes and don't repeat them.
So what you are saying is that it is not religion per se that is the problem, but rather it is people and their leaders.
I agree that one does not need "religion" to do evil things. It is human nature to be lead by a leader. A leader can whip the citizens into a hateful frenzy. The crowd mentality takes over and people do horrible things. Conflicts like the American Civil war, WW1 and the Korean war are perfect examples.
I really don't understand why so many atheists seem to find "religion" as the root cause of war. War is really about resources, territory and power. Does anyone really believe that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor because the US is not a Shinto nation?
Don't put words into my mouth. Leaders are a part of the problem but it is the religious mindset that propagates it. Religion is a huge problem because it provides a "logical pathway" for otherwise illogical actions and heinous behavior. The very fact that totalitarian dictators have to utilize these elements of religious thinking should be more than ample evidence of the problem with it.
War may be about resources, territory and power but the best way to whip a group of people into a frenzy is by utilizing religious values (or a religious mindset). In circumstances of war, religion is usually used as the "glue" to hold those pieces together. Hell, I did three tours in the Middle East to include Iraq and was overwhelmed by the number of soldiers who not only thought the war was a noble and good thing but that it was a sort of "calling" for their Christian faith.
Finally, to address the Pearl Harbor issue... You are not thinking deeply enough about the term "religious thinking" or "religious ideology." Shintoism had very little, if anything, to do with the attack on Pearl Harbor or Japanese expansionism into the Pacific. For starters, Theodore Roosevelt gave the go-ahead for Japanese expansionism into Korea and other parts of Asia with his "Japanese Monroe Doctrine for Asia." In essence, knowing we were unable to police parts of Asia, we basically gave the Japanese the go-ahead for expansionism into large parts of Asia. The bombing of Pearl Harbor was largely a retaliatory (but offensive) maneuver at clamping down and turning our backs on that.
HOWEVER, despite the fact that the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor was largely a response to greedy imperialism and expansionism at the hands of the Japanese, you must not forget the primary motivator in all of this. How do you get an entire country to follow you and get you to believe that imperialism in the fashion of the Japanese was not only a good thing but also their right?
In order to do so, you have to whip the people into a frenzy and the best way to do that is by a religious mindset. In fact, Hirohito was also viewed by the Japanese as a God; also as a result of the way Japanese had viewed their emperor for years. This is not too dissimilar from the way Stalin was viewed as a result of the Russian peasants' ideology of a czar. To further on that point, the Ningen Sengen was a declaration issued by Hirohito after the war which acknowledged that he WAS NOT A LIVING GOD to the Japanese people and to the rest of the world.
So I ask: If there was no such belief in God(s), how could Hirohito have proclaimed himself as such to the Japanese people without coming across as a complete crackhead lunatic?
In essence, the concept of deified human beings and their religious followings is largely and grossly responsible for the evils of the world - particularly in the early parts of the 20th century. Without the people carrying a religious mindset towards a person, or believing that such an incarnate being could exist in the first place, they would not be so easily swayed to commit the things they commit.
Stalin, Mao, Kim Sung and Castro all realized that the best approach was to create a cult dedicated to worshiping themselves. The trappings of religion are a powerful thing in the human psyche and all of them fully realized it. So all the time that they were actively crusading against organized religion and seeking to wipe it out, they were creating the most theocratic nations the world has ever seen, all centered on worshiping them as a virtual God on Earth.
As a Christian, I take the Holocaust and all atrocities before it done in the name of God and Christ as important lessons to learn from. Christendom should know now what not to do in the future. Atheism can take the same lessons from the horrors brought about by Marxism.
The point is not, "We're better than you." The point is to learn from past mistakes and don't repeat them.
I agree with the caveat that Atheists have no need to take the same lessons from the horrors brought about by Marxism except, perhaps, to see that sort of thing coming. It is the religious people who should take heed to the horrors brought about by Marxism. They are the people who fall victim to the trappings of religious ideology towards a person or entity of alleged "supernatural" or "deified" consistency. Most Atheists that I've encountered would simply roll their eyes, curl their hand into a fist, and move their arm up and down in response to a person claiming any such relation to a deity or supernatural entity.
The unfortunate part is that the horrors of such totalitarian rule get to a point where "forced worship" is mandatory and all those who refuse must do so at their own peril. Kind of like the way the Bible depicts the Christian god.
Hitler was never an atheist. The available evidence points to the fact that he remained a theist throughout his whole life.
You will note that I put Hitler in the Christianity column. Some say he's more atheist, others say his true belief-set was the Occult, and others say he was really a devout Christian -- and that the persona he seemed to project to the people of Germany was genuinely the real Hitler.
Hitler himself belongs in a grey area because the debate can take you in any number of directions. But because he played into Christian bigotries against Jews, gypsies and other groups, the crimes agaisnt humanity of Nazi Germany move into the Christian column. Hitler couldn't have done it without Christian bigotries afterall.
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It is true that Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot, were all atheists. But the primary influences that led to their atrocities were not atheism per se but their dogmatic Marxism and communist ideas.
Yet the underlying fact is that Marxism is nothing more and nothing less than an Atheistic Utopian social theory. The focus of Marxist fury is not entirely focussed on organized religion, this is true. The larger focus is class warfare. But Marxism views all organized religion one of the most powerful forces keeping the Proletariat poor and enslaved while keeping the Bourgeosie wealthy and in control.
Christianity prefers to opt out of responsibility for the Holocaust and the atrocities committed during the era of colonialism, but the truth is that the leaders and nations who committed these crimes were solidly grounded in Christian teachings. Their actions most certainly are a black mark on the whole of Christendom. But in like fashion, the crimes of Marxism are an enormous black mark on Atheism.
Considering the enormity of the mass-murdering perpetrated by Marxism, one could easily conclude that the world is better off with religion than without it.
Ultimately, I think human nature is the true source of all the terrible atrocities in human history. It does not require religion as an excuse. Any passionately felt cause will do just fine.
Quoted for truth. We are what we are, whether we evolved that way or were made by God 6,000 years ago and corrupted by a talking snake. Take religion out of the picture and we'll still find plenty of reasons to kill each other.
But in like fashion, the crimes of Marxism are an enormous black mark on Atheism.
Considering the enormity of the mass-murdering perpetrated by Marxism, one could easily conclude that the world is better off with religion than without it.
But you still haven't drawn a conclusion between Atheism and Marxism! All you're doing is saying that Stalin, Mao, etc... were Atheists and Marxists and therefore they committed their atrocities in the name of Atheism. There is no clear link between such a thing any more than there is in saying that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, Il, Hirohito all had black hair and therefore people with black hair should heed the warnings of Marxism.
In essence, the concept of deified human beings and their religious followings is largely and grossly responsible for the evils of the world - particularly in the early parts of the 20th century. Without the people carrying a religious mindset towards a person, or believing that such an incarnate being could exist in the first place, they would not be so easily swayed to commit the things they commit.
I view this sort of thinking as stretching the concept of religion. I have seen it done over and over by atheists who are confronted with the fact that more people died in the wars of the last 150 years than in all of previous recorded history. Of those wars, less than 10% were religious wars.
It may be a hard pill to swallow, but atheists (those who don't believe in any god) have commited the same horrors that atheists say religious people have done. It is called human nature.
Stalin-atheist
Pol Pot-atheist
Mao-atheist
Castro-atheist
I could go on.
I agree with the caveat that Atheists have no need to take the same lessons from the horrors brought about by Marxism except, perhaps, to see that sort of thing coming. It is the religious people who should take heed to the horrors brought about by Marxism. They are the people who fall victim to the trappings of religious ideology towards a person or entity of alleged "supernatural" or "deified" consistency. Most Atheists that I've encountered would simply roll their eyes, curl their hand into a fist, and move their arm up and down in response to a person claiming any such relation to a deity or supernatural entity.
The unfortunate part is that the horrors of such totalitarian rule get to a point where "forced worship" is mandatory and all those who refuse must do so at their own peril. Kind of like the way the Bible depicts the Christian god.
Fascinating, so all the crimes of Marxism are to be blamed on religion?
Actually the lesson learned is that human nature has a significant amount of gullibility, power-mongering and maliciousness to it. Delete religion from the equation and religion re-invents itself as something terrible -- at least in the case of Marxism.
Would they today's atheists be so much wiser if they had grown up in the USSR or China in the middle of Communist revolution? The mob says says, "rise up, throw off the shackles of religion, royalty and subservience." Do you honestly believe that atheism of today -- lacking any historical forewarning -- would not latch onto that movement? Do you presume that they would not get just as caught up in things? I really think they would.
I view this sort of thinking as stretching the concept of religion. I have seen it done over and over by atheists who are confronted with the fact that more people died in the wars of the last 150 years than in all of previous recorded history. Of those wars, less than 10% were religious wars.
It may be a hard pill to swallow, but atheists (those who don't believe in any god) have commited the same horrors that atheists say religious people have done. It is called human nature.
Stalin-atheist
Pol Pot-atheist
Mao-atheist
Castro-atheist
I could go on.
How is it stretching the concept of religion?! Because it doesn't have a holy book? The fact is that the dictators were worshipped as deities and many of the people doing the worshipping literally thought the dictator was some sort of God on Earth. Religion is not strictly confined to the modalities of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity and religious thinking or worship is certainly not excluded from anything.
And, again, all the dictators you mentioned had black hair and happened to be Marxists. Using the logic you've provided, people with black hair have committed more atrocities in the last 150 years than all others combined.
You're going to have to do a lot more to show that their frame of thought regarding the absence of a deity is what led them to commit the atrocities they did!
But you still haven't drawn a conclusion between Atheism and Marxism! All you're doing is saying that Stalin, Mao, etc... were Atheists and Marxists and therefore they committed their atrocities in the name of Atheism. There is no clear link between such a thing any more than there is in saying that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, Il, Hirohito all had black hair and therefore people with black hair should heed the warnings of Marxism.
What line do I need to draw? Do I need to link all of the anti-religion programs (massacres mostly) carried out by each? Or are you looking for something else here?
It's easy for me to say, "I'm not Catholic, so the Spanish Inquisition, the crimes of the Spanish and Portuguese committed in the New World and all other Catholic things have nothing to do with me." And I delude myself into believing that my own religious belief-set can never be twisted into doing such horrible things to people. But I'd be rather foolish to think that way, now wouldn't I?
Easy enough for me to say, "It wasn't about religion it was about greed and power" every time Christianity is misused to excuse terrible crimes.
And this is exactly what I was talking about in my original post. Atheists refuse to accept any notion that Atheism can commit such crimes. "Marxism is some sideshow that has nothing to do with Atheism" "Our version of Atheism is better than that, we'd never do anything like that!" That's a very self-delusional approach IMHO.
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