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This is a conversation that has repeatedly dragged other threads off topic, so I decided to open a thread for it.
What I keep running into is Atheists bantering and patting each other on the back, claiming that religion (and Christianity in particular) has been responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in human history.
It is true that some of the most terrible examples of human suffering and death happened in the name of religion: The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.
And yes some religiously affiliated people oversaw many of the greatest human massacres in human history:
Adolf Hitler (”http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Hitler” - broken link) is responsible for an estimated 25 million total deaths during his rule of Germany. And while there is plenty of reason to doubt Hitler’s sincere religiousness – the man was probably more Atheist than anything else – he played the part of a sincere believer and manipulated the European people via long-standing Christian religious bigotries against Jews, gypsies and others.
King Léopold II (”http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Congo” - broken link) of Belgium massacred an estimated 8 million people in Congo.
[URL” http://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm#Armenian”]Muslim ruler Ismail Enver of Turkey[/url] oversaw the massacre of at least 1.5 million Armenian Christians and other Christian minorities living inside the Ottoman Empire's during his rule. It remains as one of the few large scale genocides of the 20th Century that the guilty nation-state (Turkey) refuses to admit ever happened.
Laying these and other such mass-slaughters at the feet of religion is less clear. These leaders were not acting on behalf of their religion but indirect responsibility cannot be avoided. Especially in the cases of Hitler and Enver, their longstanding religious bigotries in Christianity and Islam played a huge role in bringing about these respective acts of genocide. This is the bloody shirt that Atheists love to wave around, proclaiming how horrible religion makes people.
But when you bring up the crimes of Atheists committed via Marxist-Communism, suddenly the Atheist community starts acting like politicians with something to hide, throwing up denials, excuses, word-definition games, changing the subject, etc. None of them seem to want to admit that any of it can be laid at the feet of Atheism.
1.) Mao Zedong is responsible for at least 40 million deaths in China (”http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Mao” - broken link) and some place the number as high as 80 million. Even the lowest estimates probably make earn him the title, "Greatest mass-murderer in human history."
2.) Josef Stalin's regime was almost as bloody, killing at least 20 million people (”http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin” - broken link) and as many as 60 million.
3.) Then we have Vladimir Lenin who oversaw the slaughter of at least 9 million in the Bolshevik Revolution (”http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#RCW” - broken link).
4.) Kim Il Sung (”http://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm#North” - broken link) managed to tally a death toll of about 3 million North Koreans during his rule.
5.) Pol Pot (”http://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm#Cambodia” - broken link) killed between 1 and 4 million in his Khmer Rouge reign of terror, reducing the overall population of Cambodia by 1/3.
The baffling thing to me is that many Atheists, while happy to quote Karl Marx saying “religion is the opium of the masses,” refuse to acknowledge that every single Marxist leader was actually an atheist. Upon gaining control of each nation, Marxist-Communist governments ALL did the same thing: They launched broad sweeping anti-religious/pro-atheist crusades. Churches were destroyed, converted into factories, etc. Religious leaders were killed. The remnants of religious organizations were turned into puppets of the Communist rulers, though the intent to eradicate all religion remained as an unwavering goal. In many cases, it became impractical to pursue the crusade against religion and a truce was struck allowing religions to survive Communist rule, but it never started out that way.
Ultimately, I think human nature is the true source of all the terrible atrocities in human history. It does not require religion as an excuse. Any passionately felt cause will do just fine. But at the end of the day, Marxist flavors of Communism under the banner of Atheism have killed an absolutely astounding number of people.
Then in recent times we have the bible beating born again buffoon Bush turning Iraqi babies into red stains in their beds in Iraq.
But none can top the murderous god you bow and grovel to, you know that one that ordered babies to be chopped up with swords, and in one of his little fits, killed 99.9999% of all life on the planet.
If you or I die at the hands of a political leader it will be because of their god, or more accurately the insanity of that leader defending a god that does not exist. That is what killed 3000+ on 9/11, and hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan since.
Then in recent times we have the bible beating born again buffoon Bush turning Iraqi babies into red stains in their beds in Iraq.
But none can top the murderous god you bow and grovel to, you know that one that ordered babies to be chopped up with swords, and in one of his little fits, killed 99.9999% of all life on the planet.
If you or I die at the hands of a political leader it will be because of their god, or more accurately the insanity of that leader defending a god that does not exist. That is what killed 3000+ on 9/11, and hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan since.
And just think, this God you hate and despise is the only show in town.
Should be interesting.
********
I suppose you are going to figure out some way to blame a diety for the Rape of Nanking (1936), Stalin's killing of 20,000,000 Ruskies and what's going in in North Korea.
This is a conversation that has repeatedly dragged other threads off topic, so I decided to open a thread for it.
What I keep running into is Atheists bantering and patting each other on the back, claiming that religion (and Christianity in particular) has been responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in human history.
It is true that some of the most terrible examples of human suffering and death happened in the name of religion: The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.
And yes some religiously affiliated people oversaw many of the greatest human massacres in human history: Adolf Hitler is responsible for an estimated 25 million total deaths during his rule of Germany. And while there is plenty of reason to doubt Hitler’s sincere religiousness – the man was probably more Atheist than anything else – he played the part of a sincere believer and manipulated the European people via long-standing Christian religious bigotries against Jews, gypsies and others. King Léopold II of Belgium massacred an estimated 8 million people in Congo.
[URL” http://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm#Armenian”]Muslim ruler Ismail Enver of Turkey[/url] oversaw the massacre of at least 1.5 million Armenian Christians and other Christian minorities living inside the Ottoman Empire's during his rule. It remains as one of the few large scale genocides of the 20th Century that the guilty nation-state (Turkey) refuses to admit ever happened.
Laying these and other such mass-slaughters at the feet of religion is less clear. These leaders were not acting on behalf of their religion but indirect responsibility cannot be avoided. Especially in the cases of Hitler and Enver, their longstanding religious bigotries in Christianity and Islam played a huge role in bringing about these respective acts of genocide. This is the bloody shirt that Atheists love to wave around, proclaiming how horrible religion makes people.
But when you bring up the crimes of Atheists committed via Marxist-Communism, suddenly the Atheist community starts acting like politicians with something to hide, throwing up denials, excuses, word-definition games, changing the subject, etc. None of them seem to want to admit that any of it can be laid at the feet of Atheism.
1.) Mao Zedong is responsible for at least 40 million deaths in China and some place the number as high as 80 million. Even the lowest estimates probably make earn him the title, "Greatest mass-murderer in human history."
2.) Josef Stalin's regime was almost as bloody, killing at least 20 million people and as many as 60 million.
3.) Then we have Vladimir Lenin who oversaw the slaughter of at least 9 million in the Bolshevik Revolution.
4.) Kim Il Sung managed to tally a death toll of about 3 million North Koreans during his rule.
5.) Pol Pot killed between 1 and 4 million in his Khmer Rouge reign of terror, reducing the overall population of Cambodia by 1/3.
The baffling thing to me is that many Atheists, while happy to quote Karl Marx saying “religion is the opium of the masses,” refuse to acknowledge that every single Marxist leader was actually an atheist. Upon gaining control of each nation, Marxist-Communist governments ALL did the same thing: They launched broad sweeping anti-religious/pro-atheist crusades. Churches were destroyed, converted into factories, etc. Religious leaders were killed. The remnants of religious organizations were turned into puppets of the Communist rulers, though the intent to eradicate all religion remained as an unwavering goal. In many cases, it became impractical to pursue the crusade against religion and a truce was struck allowing religions to survive Communist rule, but it never started out that way.
Ultimately, I think human nature is the true source of all the terrible atrocities in human history. It does not require religion as an excuse. Any passionately felt cause will do just fine. But at the end of the day, Marxist flavors of Communism under the banner of Atheism have killed an absolutely astounding number of people.
I'll never fail to see how people who want to throw this tattered argument into the wind only focus on what they think as a dictator with an Atheist streak. I won't be political about this at all, like the OP suggests.
What is the one thing that every single one of these dictators did when they overthrew various aspects of religion in their society? This is really important, because religious people always seem to forget this when they propose this argument. Have you figured it out yet? If not, here's the answer:
Every single one of the people you mentioned turned themselves into a deity (of sorts) to be worshipped and honored in the same way that religions honor Gods. In almost every society where totalitarian rule has been present, one would be inundated with statues of "The Leader," or "The Great Leader," or "The Dear Leader," or "The Führer." One can hardly go anywhere without seeing massive portraits of said leaders roaming throughout the city. The citizens of those countries are told that the leader is responsible for food, shelter, and even the rain for the crops. Despite the fact that an enormous amount of people may suffer at the hands of such a concept, the only promotion of the "Leader" is that of some sort of demi-god.
In the past, I have proposed the following and am reminded that this would probably be a good time to do so again:
The God of the Bible is a lot like North Korea and its leadership. The Dear Leader is responsible for everything good and nothing bad. Bad comes, ironically from what North Korea calls, "The Great Satan" - The United States of America. In fact, bad (according to the Dear Leader) does not exist in North Korea which is not too dissimilar from the views of heaven that most Christians have. One cannot worship or promote the views of another "Dear Leader" or government similar to the ground rules of one of the Ten Commandments "Thou shall have no other Gods before me."
In North Korea, one can hardly go anywhere without seeing pictures of Kim Jong-Il and even North Korean hovels (wouldn't be fair to call them homes) have pictures of the "Dear Leader" and his father "The Great Leader" on the wall - not too dissimilar from the cross every Christian has plastered on his or her walls. When people are thankful for something in North Korea, guess who they give their thanks to before dinner or in their moment of happiness? Of course... Who else but the Dear Leader or The Great Leader?
Worst of all, there is a punishment so bad for not believing in the Dear Leader and his regime. The punishment is to be sent to a place filled with such hard labor and ghastly treatment that one could literally call it "Hell on Earth." This is not too dissimilar from the "re-education camps" offered by Stalinist Russia or the Maoist Reds in China except that it's probably worse.
In essence, the denial or rejection of "The Dear Leader" or "The Great Leader" in North Korea gets you a one-way ticket to "Hell." And, did I forget to mention that "The Great Leader" is still running the country even though he died in 1994? Kim Jong-Il, his son, is merely the de facto presiding government figurehead. So, if anything, North Korea is absolutely probably one of the most religious societies in the World - they just happen to worship a human dictator.
Next on the list, I'd like to correct your statement about Hitler:
Hitler was Christened a Catholic and brought up in a Catholic household. I was too, sort of, but rejected it at a very young age. So, I can understand that being Christened a Catholic and brought up in a Catholic household might not necessarily mean you're religious. However, the key thing to note about Hitler is that he HAD TO USE religion as a tool to commit the things he did.
For centuries, the Catholic Church promoted an Anti-Semitism directed towards Jews for having killed Christ. In Germany, a place where the Catholic Church lived for a very long time, these Anti-Semitic sentiments ran not just through a generation or two but through centuries of cultural bigotry directed towards the Jews. It was to the Catholic Church that most SS, Waffen, and Gestapo officers belonged. And the belt buckles of the German soldiers? What did they say? Gott mit uns. This does not mean "Got mittens?" despite the innocent nature of the way it sounds. Rather, it means "God with Us."
In other words, a belief in God from the overwhelming proportion of Nazi soldiers was what provided the ability for Hitler to continue doing what he was doing. The deep-running hatred of the Jews was easily justified during their times of economic hardship by also having the instilled resentments in them from centuries of propaganda by the Catholic Church. To wit, without religion - which the Nazi's were persecuting in the first place, it's extraordinarily unlikely that Hitler would have been able to do what he did!
Finally, I'll briefly mention Stalin as I've already made several comparisons to him in this reply already. In Russia, for a very long time, the tsar was considered something of a demi-God. He wasn't quite an immortal that lived forever and ever in the heavens but he was far greater than an ordinary man in the peasants' eyes. When czarist Russia fell, Lenin took the place of the czar and he was promptly put in the same societal position as the old czar - that of the Demi-God. Once Stalin took over, these sentiments had not changed very much. In effect, Stalin had an easy introduction to becoming a Demi-God, of sorts, by merely being in the position the old czar's once had. It was not difficult, from there, to turn him into the same sort of religious leader that Kim Jong-Il and his father, Kim Song-Il, have themselves turned into... Demi-Gods, or perhaps Gods, with an extremely religious following.
Whether any of those men are Atheists or not is really not important. Atheists certainly have just as much capacity as any human being to commit atrocities of horrendous magnitude. But, I find it difficult to believe that any of them would have been able to accomplish what they did without a religious fervor and mentality backing them up.
And just think, this God you hate and despise is the only show in town.
Should be interesting.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, beyond the usual delusional thinking that your god exists regardless of what we atheists say.
You should be aware, though, that atheists do not "hate and despise" your god any more than we hate and despise Stana, Dracula, Voldemort, or other fictional characters.
It is sometimes worth pointing out, though, that the god depicted in the Bible, if he existed, would be, by the testimony of his believers and worshippers, the greatest monster in the history of the universe.
Every single one of the people you mentioned turned themselves into a deity (of sorts) to be worshipped and honored in the same way that religions honor Gods. In almost every society where totalitarian rule has been present, one would be inundated with statues of "The Leader," or "The Great Leader," or "The Dear Leader," or "The Führer." One can hardly go anywhere without seeing massive portraits of said leaders roaming throughout the city. The citizens of those countries are told that the leader is responsible for food, shelter, and even the rain for the crops. Despite the fact that an enormous amount of people may suffer at the hands of such a concept, the only promotion of the "Leader" is that of some sort of demi-god.
So what you are saying is that it is not religion per se that is the problem, but rather it is people and their leaders.
I agree that one does not need "religion" to do evil things. It is human nature to be lead by a leader. A leader can whip the citizens into a hateful frenzy. The crowd mentality takes over and people do horrible things. Conflicts like the American Civil war, WW1 and the Korean war are perfect examples.
I really don't understand why so many atheists seem to find "religion" as the root cause of war. War is really about resources, territory and power. Does anyone really believe that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor because the US is not a Shinto nation?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, beyond the usual delusional thinking that your god exists regardless of what we atheists say.
Delusional? Rich.
And I really won't change my mind about God just because of what you atheists say. I grew up in an atheistic home. I've heard it all and after using my brain I came to be a Christian.
And just think, this God you hate and despise is the only show in town.
No more like a bad comedy act with worn out material ripped off of dozens of earlier failed acts.
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