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As to the part I don't agree with. Mohammad is not in the Torah nor the Tanakh. I am fluent in Hebrew and Arabic and words that sound similar does not mean they are similar or the same.
But who is this woman in S of S 5 if not Judaism?
Her sisters are Jerusalem.
And, Muhammad did support Judaism, wrong as it was by 32AD.
Muhammad did a first attempt to oppose Christianity and embrace Judaism, but he was shunned by the Jews in 616AD.
Sharia is a re-statement of Torah Laws and the platform for what was once a Hebrew patriarchy very much as we find in Islam now.
5:16 - JPS
His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is our prophet to come, Muhammad.
This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.
But the way the whole passage reads I would have expected the word to mean Allah.
No, the speaker does as he states in ENGLISH that since the words sound the same then they must be the same. He is speaking to an audience that does not understand that Hebrew/Arabic/Aramaic is not WYSIWYG as in English. For anyone who speaks and understand the languages know that the letters do not make up the word. It is the vowels and its context in use that do.
The term is מחמדים (with vowels: מַחֲמַדִּים, pronounced: machmadim) and it is a plural form of the word מחמד (machmad) means something precious, or beloved, in Hebrew.
The word machmad in Hebrew comes from the root CH.M.D, the root of words such as "coveted", "delightful", "delightful", "desirable"...
In Arabic, the root CH.M.D is the root of words such as "praised", "decent", "praiseworthy" etc, and this is also the root of the name Muhammad.
The sentence "חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים" (Chico, mamtakim, vechulo, machmadim) was translated as: "His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is altogether lovely".
No, the speaker does as he states in ENGLISH that since the words sound the same then they must be the same. He is speaking to an audience that does not understand that Hebrew/Arabic/Aramaic is not WYSIWYG as in English. For anyone who speaks and understand the languages know that the letters do not make up the word. It is the vowels and its context in use that do.
The term is מחמדים (with vowels: מַחֲמַדִּים, pronounced: machmadim) and it is a plural form of the word מחמד (machmad) means something precious, or beloved, in Hebrew.
The word machmad in Hebrew comes from the root CH.M.D, the root of words such as "coveted", "delightful", "delightful", "desirable"...
In Arabic, the root CH.M.D is the root of words such as "praised", "decent", "praiseworthy" etc, and this is also the root of the name Muhammad.
The sentence "חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים" (Chico, mamtakim, vechulo, machmadim) was translated as: "His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is altogether lovely".
I see your point too.
I am sympathetic to what you say, but I must admit that many passages elsewhere cleverly supply dual meaning by the choice of such synonyms.
You are saying that YOUR choice of the vowels is different than the Muslim's, and I tend to agree.
But God promised Ishmael a great nation as he had through Isaac:
[SIZE=2]20 [/SIZE]And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
So, this insistence to see the word as if it prophetically recognized Muhammad is OK with me.
Both Isaac and Muhammad, however, would course through a Judaism of a kind that was not affected by Christ, as we see today.
And both will actually come to Christ and reject their present teachings that deny him.
Are people still arguing about the existence of the NAME Muhammad in Song of Songs?
This is a ridiculous use of words that are similar to later names, and nothing more. It's that simple. I can think of plenty of modern words that can be found in ancient texts with a few modifications - but this by no means signifies that the ancient words had the modern meanings.
Many appeals have been made to Ben Yehuda's dictionary of MODERN HEBREW - an important distinction. But we are talking about BIBLICAL HEBREW which is entirely different. A poster claimed they knew Hebrew - well, good for them! That doesn't mean they know Biblical Hebrew, which has many words whose meanings and usages have changed over thousands of years.
A translation appears below, with the debated word in bold.
His mouth is sweet,
And all of him is desirable.
This is my love, this my mate,
O Jerusalem girls.
(Song of Songs 5:16, AB Pope)
From context alone it is pretty difficult to argue that the name of a much later prophet would make any sort of sense in the passage. It is pretty clearly in the setting of erotic love poetry. When the plain-sense meaning offers no difficulties, there is absolutely NO REASON to seek our obscure and hidden meanings that would only make sense thousands of years later and were not on the minds of the author of the Song of Songs. Other than that, an actual linguistic investigation can reveal much.
The meaning of the Arabic name "Muhammad" is "praiseworthy". The word in question in the Song of Songs passage is translated technically as "desirable (things)" - a far cry from "praiseworthy". The word, in Biblical Hebrew, is maḥămaddîm and is also found in Ugaritic as mḥmd and used to describe cedar trees ("choice/desirable cedars"), as well as of gold. The literal translation of the phrase would yield "his totality is desirable things", which produces the above translation idiomatically to make better sense of it for modern readings. Nowhere does "praiseworthy" come into play in the context of the passage, and nowhere would it make sense. Neither would a personal name make any sort of sense. It certainly is SIMILAR to Mohammad, but it is vastly different in meaning and etymology. There are plenty of words in Semitic languages that have the same root, but vastly different meanings.
So now that we've looked at the context of the passage and the linguistic data, perhaps we can lay this silly idea to rest. Probably not - but at least whoever is still in favor of it will be arguing against cold facts on the ground. One can certainly argue for dual and hidden meanings, but the onus is on the person arguing for such a thing, and methinks they really do not understand synonomous parallelism in Biblical Hebrew poetry.
Her sisters are Jerusalem.
And, Muhammad did support Judaism, wrong as it was by 32AD.
Muhammad did a first attempt to oppose Christianity and embrace Judaism, but he was shunned by the Jews in 616AD.
Sharia is a re-statement of Torah Laws and the platform for what was once a Hebrew patriarchy very much as we find in Islam now.
That's just a silly reading of the text that is already plain in its import. Its a poem about the love between two human lovers - two individuals. There is no reason to allegorize the text and "clean it up" in order to arrive at some wonky meaning. You are not the first one. The book only made it into the canon (after all, it IS erotic love poetry with some very explicit scenes) because a rabbi argued it signified the relationship between God and Israel. Later Christians would see Jesus and the Church. And now you see Judaism? Come on...
If you wish to pursue such a meaning, then you have to contend with the very sexually explicit passages in the work and try to make some allegorical sense out of them.
As it is - interpretations like the above destroy the beauty of this work of love. And that's a shame. Enjoy it for what it is - not for what you WANT it be.
The Quran is always present in its original text - Arabic and all muslims know how to properly pronounce arabic ..and then it is accompanied with translation to all whatever language .Why don't the Christians have the Bible in its original text Aramaic , learn how to pronounce and then know its translation ? Why are there so many versions of the Bible and only one Quran since it was revealed ? Why has so much been deleted from the Bible . Watch the history channel documentary " Banned from the Bible " .
Absolutely right my friend about the verse in Song of songs - Interestingly they have translated the name ‘Mohammed’ in the translation of the verse . Most names have meanings but you call a person by his/her name not the meaning of the name.Also, no reason to translate Eshoa into Jesus because that's how you pronounce it in Aramaic and Esa in arabic.
The word father/Lord has been used by Abraham and other prophets .. also so what does that mean ?...they were still only prophets.Peace be upon all of them.
All prophets had the same message if you know the first commandment ."You shall have no other gods before me"...WORSHIP ONLY ONE GOD - the Almighty.
There is the old testimont, the new testimont and Quran is the lastest testimont - if you read it you will find it to be from the same author. That is if you read it .If you are a seeker of the truth you will read all these books with every attempt to learn about its true origin ( which includes language and knowledge of history).
Remember ,all muslims have enormous respect for Esa (A noble prophet , son of virgin Mary, great healing powers, the mesiah) and Bible - unfortunately it did not remain in its original form as say many Christian history scholars .
Last edited by ZeeLight; 01-17-2014 at 12:11 PM..
01-17-2014, 12:34 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
The ignorance on this thread is astounding - feels like I've been transported back to the 7th century.
Absolutely fascinating...so there was never a person with the name 'Mahammad' before the one you're talking about?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Amazing what a preconceived notion can accomplish!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Just for the record, here is chapter 5, verse 16 of that book:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><font color="darkslateblue"><i><b>"His mouth is most sweet;</b></i></font></p>
<p><i><b><font color="darkslateblue">Yea, he is altogether lovely.</font></b></i></p>
<p><i><b><font color="darkslateblue">This is my beloved, and this is my friend;</font></b></i></p>
<p><i><b><font color="darkslateblue">O daughters of Jerusalem."</font></b></i></p>
<p> </p>
<p>I must have missed Mahammad's name. Or you didn't quote the right verse.
</p>
<p> </p><p><font color="blue"><strong>Yes my friend you surely have missed it as its hidden in Hebrew > English translation:</strong></font></p><p><strong><font color="#0000ff"></font></strong> </p><p><strong><font color="#0000ff">Go to <a href="http://www.translate.com">www.translate.com</a> and </font><font color="darkorange">copy paste the <font color="red">red Hebrew word</font> and translate into Arabic. </font></strong></p><p><strong><font color="#ff8c00">God Bless you too...I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't done this myself.</font></strong></p><p><strong><font color="#0000ff"></font></strong> </p><table width="95%" border="0" cellPadding="5"><tbody><tr><td vAlign="TOP"><a name="V16"><h4>16</h4></a></td><td><font face="ARIAL" size="2"><strong>Modern Hebrew </strong>taken from<strong> </strong><a href="http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B22C005.htm#V16"><strong>http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B22C005.htm#V16</strong></a></font><br><table><tbody><tr><td align="RIGHT"><p><font size="7">חכו ממתקים וכלו </font></p><p><font size="7"><font color="red"><font color="red">מחמד</font> </font>ים זה דודי<br>וזה רעי בנות<br>ירושלם׃</font></p><p><font size="7"></font> </p></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
The world has denied every messenger that God has sent. They even denied Jesus (pbuh) when they had proof.. People are prideful and so was the devil. Prophet Muhammad is clearly described in the Torah. If you study his life you'll come to know he was an obedient servant of God. A true prophet. God will be the judge on the day of judgement. When you see truth don't deny it. Don't you reflect? Look at this world fighting, rascism, killings.. All because people lie and won't except truth. People will do anything to stay in control. Even if it is altering the bible ( the Gospel) itself .. May God bless you all
This is a prophecy of Prophet Muhammad as he conquered Mecca. It is a well known historically documented fact that in the year 630 CE Muhammad entered Mecca as the leader of an army of "ten thousand men".
(c. 570–632), Arab prophet and founder of Islam. In c. 610, in Mecca, he received the first of a series of revelations that, as the Koran, became the doctrinal and legislative basis of Islam. In the face of opposition to his preaching, he and his small group of supporters were forced to flee to Medina in 622 (the Hegira). Muhammad led his followers into a series of battles against the Meccans. In 630, Mecca capitulated and by his death Muhammad had united most of Arabia.
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