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This is one of the most persistent and dishonest claims made about atheism - that we can only validly disbelieve if we know to 100% certainty - and if we claim that we do have certain knowledge, we are being illogical and foolish.
Persistent yes! Dishonest? No! The reason it isn't dishonest is because given the limited scope of our human perception, claiming certainty concerning the nonexistence of a creator encompassing the whole realm of existence is totally illogical. In fact, it is tantamount to claiming omniscience and omnipresence because only then would your claim be justified.
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Originally Posted by sanspeur
Fleet has faith, and needs no proof...Faith...Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. In my opinion faith is for fools.
The faith you describe is but not the faith that the Bible describes which is completely different. In fact, that faith tells us that unbelievers have no excuse because of the preponderance of evidence which proves there is a creator.
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Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Sorry, no offense to Hawkings, but he does not know, any more than anyone else what happens when we die. So, he is full of sh#t.
When he has direct, proven, empirical evidence that there is no heaven, I will take his word on it.
Until then, I will believe whatever I want.
Also, no offense to people in wheelchairs, or with disabilities...but he really does not live a "normal" life. His entire view of reality is skewed from his point of view as a disabled person, and a seemingly bitter one at that.
Kinda hostile dontcha think? He never said you had to agree and or follow his belief. The man is entitled his own opinion. Why are you guys still arguing whether atheism or Christianity is more illogical? Nobody is going to win, it's pretty pointless.
Persistent yes! Dishonest? No! The reason it isn't dishonest is because given the limited scope of our human perception, claiming certainty concerning the nonexistence of a creator encompassing the whole realm of existence is totally illogical. In fact, it is tantamount to claiming omniscience and omnipresence because only then would your claim be justified.
As you ignored it last time I asked you, I'll ask again. Does the same apply to theist who claim that only their particular god exists?
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The faith you describe is but not the faith that the Bible describes which is completely different. In fact, that faith tells us that unbelievers have no excuse because of the preponderance of evidence which proves there is a creator.
"preponderance of evidence"?? Would you like to share some of it with us?
Unfortunately, "faith" in its many guises causes a huge amount of distress to the world in general.
It's a shame that "faith" has wrecked the lives of so many people on this planet.
It has also helped the lives of so many people on this planet. See story below.
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Maybe you should listen to God and stop believing in false idols?
What false idols?
I found this story which was printed in the Los Angeles Daily News (newspaper). From Oct., 2008.
It is about a man who was born with no limbs... that's right- no arms and legs. His family and his father's church questioned why a God of love would allow the pastor's son to be born without limbs. But in time, they came to trust that God was in control.
The man, born without limbs, still felt God owned him an explanation for his disability. Then, at age 15, he read in the Gospel of John how Jesus gave sight to a blind man so the work of God could be revealed. Finding the answer he was seeking, he committed his life to Christ.
In his own words: "I know what I'm here to do and that's to tell people about the hope in Christ that strengthens me. That's the miracle. For a guy without arms or legs to smile- that's a man walking on water."
He began telling his story to Bible study groups. Word of his inspirational tale spread and invitations began piling up. He has spoken more than 1,500 times at schools, churches, hospitals, prisons and orphanages in 19 countries.
This is someone who could have lived a bitter and angry life or he could have went with his belief in God. You tell me, London Guy, which was the better choice.
Faith is the last refuge of those who have had their arguments defeated by logic and reason.
It is sometimes used that way. Although I think some of you think logic or reason are intended to do a great deal more than they really are designed to do.
Logic and Reason are good at telling us what things must be true. And one may believe that the only things that are true are those that must be true, as ghastly and narrow as that sounds to me, but this is not really what logic or reason themselves require. They are not inherently creating a complete system and in fact they almost certainly can not do such a thing. (And to an extent they come with axiomatic assumptions which are not themselves proven)
What many atheists here mean by "logic has defeated XYZ argument" is that logic can not confirm it. However this is not the same as saying it is false. (Fallacist fallacy)
"All dogs are male
You have a dog
Your dog is male"
The reasoning is fallacious, but saying that does not mean the person's dog is not male. This is an overly simple example that admittedly may confuse the heart of the matter, but the point is saying something is not confirmed by logic is not the same as saying it is unreal or false.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Faith is nothing more than refusing to recognize logic and evidence when it tells you something you'd rather not believe.
Our understanding is many ways limited. If a person did not consider things beyond what logically and empirically must exist we might become stagnant as a species.
In any event much of what you mean is more what you feel logic and evidence implies, by your or others interpretation. Although some of you make good points on the Bible I don't think any of you have ever done anything remotely close to discrediting all forms of theism and supernatural events.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Faith is simply the practice of ignoring the supportable in favor of a desired belief.
Faith is nothing but a way to lie to yourself when the evidence refuses to say what you want it to say.
One meaning of faith is "Complete trust or confidence in someone or something." From the standpoint of logic and empiricism you perhaps can never have that. After all science is trial/error so there is perhaps nothing so permanent or unquestionable you can completely trust it. Loyalty and Trust are decidedly irrational concepts that, according to psychological studies, are rarer in people of a more progressive/anti-traditional mindset. Therefore it might be natural if they seem strange to you.
Or perhaps you do completely trust certain people or things, in which case I'm not clear why. Possibly one could calculate a person's reliability and figure out how trustworthy they are, but "complete trust or confidence" I don't think could be justifiable when dealing with any real human or thing. And to be honest the "complete trust or confidence" thing is one I find difficult myself.
One meaning of faith is "Complete trust or confidence in someone or something."
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Or perhaps you do completely trust certain people or things, in which case I'm not clear why. Possibly one could calculate a person's reliability and figure out how trustworthy they are, but "complete trust or confidence" I don't think could be justifiable when dealing with any real human or thing.
I see Trust and Faith as two different things. Trust does not equate to faith.
1. Trust is based on evidence.
The Sun has always risen in the East. I believe that tomorrow, it will do so again.
2. Faith is based on no evidence.
The Sun has always risen in the East. I believe that tomorrow it will rise in the West.
1 is supported by verifiable evidence. It can be trusted as being true.
2 is not supported by any evidence whatsoever, in fact, the verifiable evidence points against it. It must be taken on faith.
TRUST: Belief based on evidence.
FAITH: Belief based on no evidence.
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And to be honest the "complete trust or confidence" thing is one I find difficult myself.
Why, do you not have complete trust and confidence that Earth revolves on it's axis once every 24 hours, or that the Sun will first appear in the East tomorrow or that if you cut off your finger you will bleed?
The Earth revolving around the sun is not the kind of trust or confidence I meant. I was mostly referring to people or things on Earth.
Although even then I'm not sure if I have "complete confidence" even in that proposition. Sure it's always done so, but something always occurring in the past is not really a guarantee it will in the future. Maybe at some point a rogue star will screw up orbit or who knows what. It seems extremely unlikely, but I'm not sure I can rule it out entirely.
I'm not a "faith alone" type believer in things. If there was no backing in human experience or history I wouldn't believe in things. However to an extent I do trust that not everyone before 1850 was deluded, a liar, or completely ignorant about reality. I do have some "faith" that nearly universal human experiences mean something besides "non-scientists are idiots."
Persistent yes! Dishonest? No! The reason it isn't dishonest is because given the limited scope of our human perception, claiming certainty concerning the nonexistence of a creator encompassing the whole realm of existence is totally illogical. In fact, it is tantamount to claiming omniscience and omnipresence because only then would your claim be justified.
The faith you describe is but not the faith that the Bible describes which is completely different. In fact, that faith tells us that unbelievers have no excuse because of the preponderance of evidence which proves there is a creator.
Do you care to share that evidence?
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