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Common name for a proposed agenda for the Catholic church looking forward.
Many in the Vatican are attempting to change the Church's position against contraception and abortion, the celibacy of priests, the reservation of the priesthood to men, and the acceptance of homosexual relationships.
Guess what?? For a thousand years the church required infant baptism. When most folks began to doubt that a just god would send an infant to hell the church stopped that requirement. The scripture is still there.
Guess what?? For thousands of years the church hunted down, tortured and hanged innocent young women who were accused of witchcraft. After hundreds of thousands had died an unjust death and people realized there was no such thing as a witch the church stopped persecuting and assassinating them. The scripture is still there.
Guess what?? For thousands of years the church tolerated and sometimes accommodated slavery but when it became obvious that using other human beings for personal gain and desires was wrong the church shut up about it. The scripture is still there.
Guess what?? Until recently the church not only allowed but preached the subjugation of women. Now the women in churches all over the world take active parts and for the most part are treated as equals. The scripture is still there.
Guess what?? For thousands of years billions of hell fire and damnation sermons were preached and the church supported an eternal burning hell for human punishment. Now it's being laid on simple translation errors. The scripture is still there.
Guess what?? For thousands of years the church's position about homosexuality was that it is mortal sin. Now most churches are beginning to allow open homosexuality in their congregations and some are beginning to allow same sex marriages. The scripture is still there.
When are we going to realize that the church is more interested in Sunday morning collections than they are any doctrine. If donations begin to drop off the church researches to find a reason...then they change whatever is bugging folks. All the scripture is still there.
For many Catholics,"Vatican II" went just too far by tampering with the best magic show in town, the Mass. No matter how one felt about whether the consecration of bread & wine was real or not, the Latin liturgy, priest facing away from parishioners, incense, and the very act of consecration itself (remember the absolute silence during consecration?) was impressive and awe-inspiring. Apparently Rome is allowing a return to this ancient ritual (at least in some parishes) because so many older Catholics miss it so. And so back-to-the future, they swing--the Vatican hierarchy knows what's best for their sheep and they know how to mesmerize the faithful. And the communion wine? No change necessary--it's always been real!
Many in the Vatican are attempting to change the Church's position against contraception and abortion, the celibacy of priests, the reservation of the priesthood to men, and the acceptance of homosexual relationships.
Is this really true?
Many officials within the Vatican itself?
I left the club many years ago, but I was under the impression that holding certain positions, including opposition to priestly celibacy and restriction of the priesthood to men, was grounds for immediate excommunication.
If I'm right I have a hard time believing that there are that many people at the central office who are making these arguments.
I left the club many years ago, but I was under the impression that holding certain positions, including opposition to priestly celibacy and restriction of the priesthood to men, was grounds for immediate excommunication.
If I'm right I have a hard time believing that there are that many people at the central office who are making these arguments.
I had a big response planned, but then I had problems with the site. It's probably just as well though.
Basically your (Melvin's) understanding of Christian history, and specifically Catholic history, is really poor. By poor I don't mean "biased" or "unfriendly to my position", I mean actively ignorant and confused. Your understanding of Vatican II or Catholicism today is not much better.
Rather than being angry or annoyed, I really should feel bad that the education system has apparently failed you. Because I think if you understood what you were talking about you might, in this case, actually be more negative to Catholicism. Or at least I think you would be pretty much the same if you knew what you were talking about, but be more biting rather than unintentionally pathetic.
I might try to think, or look for, a respected Whig or Marxist historian who did a history of Catholicism or witch-hunts or the like. ("Whig history" tends to be progressive and often sees Catholicism as backward, Marxists are of course atheistic and in academic terms they can be perfectly respectable) If that's not acceptable I might look for a respectable anti-clerical historian. In any event you're hopefully not too old to be educated and although it makes no sense to help you, why not?
I had a big response planned, but then I had problems with the site. It's probably just as well though.
Basically your (Melvin's) understanding of Christian history, and specifically Catholic history, is really poor. By poor I don't mean "biased" or "unfriendly to my position", I mean actively ignorant and confused. Your understanding of Vatican II or Catholicism today is not much better.
Rather than being angry or annoyed, I really should feel bad that the education system has apparently failed you. Because I think if you understood what you were talking about you might, in this case, actually be more negative to Catholicism. Or at least I think you would be pretty much the same if you knew what you were talking about, but be more biting rather than unintentionally pathetic.
I might try to think, or look for, a respected Whig or Marxist historian who did a history of Catholicism or witch-hunts or the like. ("Whig history" tends to be progressive and often sees Catholicism as backward, Marxists are of course atheistic and in academic terms they can be perfectly respectable) If that's not acceptable I might look for a respectable anti-clerical historian. In any event you're hopefully not too old to be educated and although it makes no sense to help you, why not?
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