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Going to hell isn't about non belief in Jesus, it is about sin.
I was responding to the post that said the most repulsive sin was not to worship the Christian messiah! And that's what makes no sense to me -- how that "sin" of not worshipping a human is worse than someone who rapes or commits murder. It's completely ludicrous.
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The reason you need Jesus to escape hell is that someone needs to pay the price for your sins,
Kind of like celebrities paying big-time lawyers to avoid jail time. This all sounds like a way to avoid accountability to me.
I was responding to the post that said the most repulsive sin was not to worship the Christian messiah! And that's what makes no sense to me -- how that "sin" of not worshiping a human is worse than someone who rapes or commits murder. It's completely ludicrous.
Kind of like celebrities paying big-time lawyers to avoid jail time. This all sounds like a way to avoid accountability to me.
I did not write the post you mentioned. But in Christian Theology Christ is not just a man he is God. If he were an ordinary man my theology is completely wrong, and I would have to abandon my faith.
But in order to do that someone is going to have to come up with a logical way to disprove all the evidence that Christ was much more than an ordinary man.
I can see why you would think it is just an attempt to avoid accountability.
When you were a child did you ever do anything wrong that you wanted to
make better but you could not, at least not by yourself? Would it be wrong under those circumstances to ask your parents for help? Because in Christian theology Christ created everything, and therefore he is everyone's Father. If it is not wrong to ask your earthly parents for help, it isn't wrong to ask your Heavenly Father for help.
I understand what you seem to be saying about accountability, Ilovejazz, but I think what Christianity teaches is that if any of us was given the justice we absolutely deserve before God in the eternal sense, we would all be destined for hell. Isn't it in the old testament the scripture which says that before God "all our righteousness is as filthy rags?" I think that may be Isaiah, but I'd have to look it up to be sure.
How can I illustrate this? If you have 2 people swimming out to an island, say 1 mile out and one person makes it about one-fourth of the way to the island and then drowns. Then the other person makes three-fourths of the way out, and then drowns. Neither one made it although the second did considerably better than the first. This is not a great illustration I know, but it's the best I can do this morning.
Let me put it another way more specifically. We may think we are morally superior to a murderer or rapist or child molester, and actually, maybe we are. But we still are not righteous in God's sight. We may not do any of things we think of as "biggie" sins or as the OP said, "repulsive" but we are still not innocent before God. Can we say that we perfectly love God with all our heart, mind and soul and our neighbor as ourselves? I personally don't think any of us can. Even if we don't have sins of commission, we do of omission. I would suggest that all of us probably have sins (of attitude and heart) that we're not even yet aware of! So, I don't think any of us can say we are totally righteous before God. Hence, this is why Christianity teaches that in a sense we all are deserving of hell. And this where for Christians, Jesus enters the picture. We believe we all need a savior, someone to bear our sins.
I know that as a Jew, Ilovejazz, this probably still is not a concept you would agree with. Especially the Jesus part, obviously. But I'm hoping maybe you can understand at least how Christianity views our guilt before God, and why a repentant murderer could still be accepted into heaven according to Christian beliefs. (Maybe this makes no sense this morning at all, but I tried.)
That's fine, but you seemed confused as to why I responded in the manner that I did.
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But in Christian Theology Christ is not just a man he is God. If he were an ordinary man my theology is completely wrong, and I would have to abandon my faith. But in order to do that someone is going to have to come up with a logical way to disprove all the evidence that Christ was much more than an ordinary man.
Part of your Bible clearly states Adonai Elohaynu, Adonai Echad. Translated into English, it says G-d is One. Also, part of the Bible you profess to accept says, You shall have no other gods before me. Yet, Christians do indeed worship a human.
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When you were a child did you ever do anything wrong that you wanted to make better but you could not, at least not by yourself? Would it be wrong under those circumstances to ask your parents for help? Because in Christian theology Christ created everything, and therefore he is everyone's Father. If it is not wrong to ask your earthly parents for help, it isn't wrong to ask your Heavenly Father for help.
This is great. Now I don't have to worry about anything I do. I will be automatically forgiven, no matter what. A rapist who ruins a woman's life, a pedophile who kills a child's essence, a murderer who steals lives and families -- no problem! As long as they worship your man, they're just fine. Meanwhile, the people who lives have been forever altered are left as victims. That's cruel and makes no sense.
If you sin against G-d, then you must ask G-d's forgiveness. If you sin against man, then you must ask man's forgiveness. However, if you murder someone, it's impossible to obtain that forgiveness. Christianity is nothing but an easy way out of responsibility.
That's fine, but you seemed confused as to why I responded in the manner that I did.
Part of your Bible clearly states Adonai Elohaynu, Adonai Echad. Translated into English, it says G-d is One. Also, part of the Bible you profess to accept says, You shall have no other gods before me. Yet, Christians do indeed worship a human.
This is great. Now I don't have to worry about anything I do. I will be automatically forgiven, no matter what. A rapist who ruins a woman's life, a pedophile who kills a child's essence, a murderer who steals lives and families -- no problem! As long as they worship your man, they're just fine. Meanwhile, the people who lives have been forever altered are left as victims. That's cruel and makes no sense.
If you sin against G-d, then you must ask G-d's forgiveness. If you sin against man, then you must ask man's forgiveness. However, if you murder someone, it's impossible to obtain that forgiveness. Christianity is nothing but an easy way out of responsibility.
Well, let me ask you this please. Are you saying that in Judaism there is no way a murderer can ever be forgiven by God and enter heaven...even if he repents?
I understand what you seem to be saying about accountability, Ilovejazz, but I think what Christianity teaches is that if any of us was given the justice we absolutely deserve before God in the eternal sense, we would all be destined for hell. Isn't it in the old testament the scripture which says that before God "all our righteousness is as filthy rags?" I think that may be Isaiah, but I'd have to look it up to be sure.
How can I illustrate this? If you have 2 people swimming out to an island, say 1 mile out and one person makes it about one-fourth of the way to the island and then drowns. Then the other person makes three-fourths of the way out, and then drowns. Neither one made it although the second did considerably better than the first. This is not a great illustration I know, but it's the best I can do this morning.
Let me put it another way more specifically. We may think we are morally superior to a murderer or rapist or child molester, and actually, maybe we are. But we still are not righteous in God's sight. We may not do any of things we think of as "biggie" sins or as the OP said, "repulsive" but we are still not innocent before God. Can we say that we perfectly love God with all our heart, mind and soul and our neighbor as ourselves? I personally don't think any of us can. Even if we don't have sins of commission, we do of omission. I would suggest that all of us probably have sins (of attitude and heart) that we're not even yet aware of! So, I don't think any of us can say we are totally righteous before God. Hence, this is why Christianity teaches that in a sense we all are deserving of hell. And this where for Christians, Jesus enters the picture. We believe we all need a savior, someone to bear our sins.
I know that as a Jew, Ilovejazz, this probably still is not a concept you would agree with. Especially the Jesus part, obviously. But I'm hoping maybe you can understand at least how Christianity views our guilt before God, and why a repentant murderer could still be accepted into heaven according to Christian beliefs. (Maybe this makes no sense this morning at all, but I tried.)
I think you tried and succeeded, but then again, I'm already a Christian so I understand what you mean.
But what kaykay is saying here, Ilovejazz, really does some it up. The basic idea is that while there are obviously sins that tower over others in horrificness--no one will claim a white lie does the same damage as child molestation--the bottom line is that to greater and lesser degrees, all have sinned and come short of God's glory. So in that sense, everyone is in the same boat.
"The beginning of atonement is the sense of its necessity." --Lord Byron
If you sin against G-d, then you must ask G-d's forgiveness. If you sin against man, then you must ask man's forgiveness. However, if you murder someone, it's impossible to obtain that forgiveness. Christianity is nothing but an easy way out of responsibility.
All sin is against God, even the sin against others is sin against God.
Kaykay, I appreciate your trying to justify your position.
However, wouldn't it be better to try to make restitution for your sins (repay what you stole, for example) to help others who have been harmed by your sin than to simply worship someone else who claims to take all your sin away? Honestly, that concept is nothing more than a snakeoil salesman.
How does allowing someone else to remove your sin help anyone at all other than the perpetrator of the crime? It would be as if you stole someone from your neighbor, and yet a third party forgave you. Yet, you didn't steal from the third party! Meanwhile, the victim of your crime remains a victim and you get off scot free.
Christianity is nothing but an easy way out of responsibility.
Wrong, I'm sorry. If some Christians have given you this perception, then I doubly apologize. We are in fact told that God forbids that we sin all the more, simply because His grace abounds to us. We have a deep responsiblity as Christians to be a light to the world. Acting however the hell we want shows an immaturity that a Christian WILL be held responsible for.
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Off by a country mile...
)
What Sin is Most Repulsive?
we want shows an immaturity that a Christian WILL be held responsible for.
