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Well if the law itself is not based on religion, and does not impose or prohibit any religious expression, then that's all that matters. I never said we could police a voter's intentions. You have even quoted where I said the only thing to do is for the courts to determine constitutionality.
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
Not true. It's not the government's place to decide 'god or no god'. They remain secular so that you can decide for yourself! There should be no government imposition or prohibition of religion at all. That's neutral.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Okay. If you're willing, let's take this step by step.
Would you agree that all law is imposition?
Would you also agree that all people have a world view (opinions/conclusions about life's ultimate questions)?
No need for step by step, tigetmax. Laws are for secular purposes and need to have a secular purpose, period. There is no religious purpose that should be made into law subject to human sanction purely for religious reasons. Murder has a secular impact and is properly illegal. Apostasy does not and has no place in the law (Islam notwithstanding). AS long as the only purpose is religious . . . it has no place in the law. It is between God and each individual . . . not society.
No need for step by step, tigetmax. Laws are for secular purposes and need to have a secular purpose, period. There is no religious purpose that should be made into law subject to human sanction purely for religious reasons. Murder has a secular impact and is properly illegal. Apostasy does not and has no place in the law (Islam notwithstanding). AS long as the only purpose is religious . . . it has no place in the law. It is between God and each individual . . . not society.
Do to your propensity to employ hit-and-run tactics, it's probably a complete waste of time for me to respond, but here goes:
Ever hear of the ten commandments? Something that goes like" "Thou shalt not murder?"
The reason no one is going to follow my step-by-step logical approach is due to the fact that when it comes to arguments which tend to excite such deep passions, there is a loss of interest in things like truth, reality and logic.
No need for step by step, tigetmax. Laws are for secular purposes and need to have a secular purpose, period. There is no religious purpose that should be made into law subject to human sanction purely for religious reasons. Murder has a secular impact and is properly illegal. Apostasy does not and has no place in the law (Islam notwithstanding). AS long as the only purpose is religious . . . it has no place in the law. It is between God and each individual . . . not society.
You've taken the easy road by stating "AS long as the ONLY purpose is religious . . . it has no place in the law." The hard and controversial cases are those with arguments that a law has both secular and religious purposes. For example, the many cases where public funds are used to assist students attending private religious schools.
Even with your standards, look at the National Day of Prayer. One federal judge ruled it unconstitutional; her decision was overturned by a federal appeals court. Though the law and proclamation have no secular purpose that I can see and promotes religion over non-religion, ruled constitutional.
...Ever hear of the ten commandments? Something that goes like" "Thou shalt not murder?"...
Please don't tell me you're implying that the things called out in the 10 commandments wouldn't be considered immoral without Christianity....
I'll go your step-by-step route, if you'd like:
Would you agree that all law is imposition? - Yes, I would agree with that statement.
Would you also agree that all people have a world view (opinions/conclusions about life's ultimate questions)? - Would I agree that ALL people in the world have opinions or conclusions about life's ultimate questions? Not necessarily. I would readily agree that MOST people, even the vast majority, do. Close enough?
Please don't tell me you're implying that the things called out in the 10 commandments wouldn't be considered immoral without Christianity....
The Aseret ha-Dibrot, the 10 Utterances, are part of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) given to those taken out of slavery in Egypt and binding on those at Sinai, their descendents and those who voluntarily accept them through conversion. Gentiles are only bound by the 7 Noahic Commandments, which are binding on all and which does include the prohibition, "Not to commit bloodshed".
Interesting. So, the Bible I was raised on included 3 other commandments for no reason?
I assume that you are referring to the Christian Bible?
First, what is typically referred to as the "10 Commandments" are the chapter headings under which the other 603 Mitzvot (Commandments) given at Sinai are organized, and are only binding on those at Sinai, their descendents and those who voluntarily accept them through conversion.
Second, there are the many differences between the Christian version of the Jewish Bible and the Jewish version of the Jewish Bible:
According to Rabbi Marc Gellman of G-d Squad fame, "One of the most important things to understand when quoting the Bible (the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Testament) is that it was not written in English. This means you're not only reading a translation from Hebrew or Greek, but you're also often reading an interpretation masquerading as a translation."
As an example of this "interpretation masquerading as a translation", further quoting Rabbi Gellman, "The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (and the text used by Jerome to translate the Bible into Latin in the 4th century), famously translates the Hebrew verse 'and behold a young woman shall give birth' as, 'and behold a virgin shall give birth.' The Hebrew word for virgin is betula, but the word used in Isaiah 7 is alma, which just means a young woman. Obviously, if there was a verse in the Hebrew Bible predicting that a virgin would give birth, this would indeed be a stunning prediction and proof text of Jesus' virgin birth. Unfortunately, for Christians who want this to be the verse, it is not the verse."
Last edited by Walter Greenspan; 09-04-2011 at 09:26 AM..
Do to your propensity to employ hit-and-run tactics, it's probably a complete waste of time for me to respond, but here goes:
Ever hear of the ten commandments? Something that goes like" "Thou shalt not murder?"
The reason no one is going to follow my step-by-step logical approach is due to the fact that when it comes to arguments which tend to excite such deep passions, there is a loss of interest in things like truth, reality and logic.
Sorry Tigetmax . . . there is NEVER any justification for enacting religious prohibitions into secular laws . . . UNLESS there is a strictly secular purpose also involved. IF the ONLY purpose is religious it has no business being enacted into secular law, period. "God desires it" . . . is NOT a justification for secular laws. God can take care of enforcing His own laws. Humans have no business trying to enforce God's laws on anyone else but themselves. Anything someone is forced to do under penalty of human sanctions accomplishess nothing that would satisfy God. If it isn't voluntarily done . . . it is pointless for God's purpose . . . which is our spiritual development.
You've taken the easy road by stating "AS long as the ONLY purpose is religious . . . it has no place in the law." The hard and controversial cases are those with arguments that a law has both secular and religious purposes. For example, the many cases where public funds are used to assist students attending private religious schools.
Even with your standards, look at the National Day of Prayer. One federal judge ruled it unconstitutional; her decision was overturned by a federal appeals court. Though the law and proclamation have no secular purpose that I can see and promotes religion over non-religion, ruled constitutional.
Sorry jazzarama . . . as much as the mixed laws may bother your sensibilities . . . if there IS a secular purpose it is completely acceptable to enact into secular law. It is ONLY the purely religious that have no place in secular laws. The implementation of policies by humans seems to be forever plagued by imperfection and fallibility . . . but it is the overall principle that we must strive for. There should be no laws that do not have a secular purpose, period. Whether or not they can be seen to have any other purposes is irrelevant as long as there IS a secular purpose for them.
Do to your propensity to employ hit-and-run tactics, it's probably a complete waste of time for me to respond, but here goes:
Ever hear of the ten commandments? Something that goes like" "Thou shalt not murder?"
Sure. Ever heard of the laws of Solon, the Code of Hammurabi or the hundreds of other laws against murder that predate the ten Commandments by millenia?
Or perhaps the Egyptian Book of The Dead from which the ten commandments were based?
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The reason no one is going to follow my step-by-step logical approach is due to the fact that when it comes to arguments which tend to excite such deep passions, there is a loss of interest in things like truth, reality and logic.
Ehh yeah. If you were remotely interested in any of those you wouldn't be a Christian. Truth, reality and logic raze The Bible and its god.
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