"Disappointment with God" - The [Christian] book that did me in (bible, worship)
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Whatever. The Hebrew scholars I've read seem to think it indicates round. But I'm sure you know better....
Take it up with Mr Strong and his concordances, not with me. And which scholars, hebrew or otherwise, say it indicates 'round'? How about you give your sources now? Of course they may well want (like you) to believe the Bible agrees with science, but I think the facts refute them. I'm willing to follow up their case.
"What lights are you referring to in the firmament?"
Jesus Christ, the stars Gen 1. 17. Don't you read your own bible?
"And yes--the dream does matter. The writer was recording the dream--not writing his own version of what the earth was like."
Ok. That is merely a human view of the time. we'll drop that as any kind of inspired vision.
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You have yet to actually provide a reasonable argument. I'll be waiting for the verse that says the earth is flat.
You are not going to get that any more than Paul says 'I'm a fraud and a liar' yet anyone with perception can follow the evidence - if they are willing. All the indications fit a flat earth not a round one. The terms refer to flat circles not round ones. You are in the position of dismissing or ignoring the indications and have nothing but flat denial to put as a counter.
Ps. Your earlier.
"Or maybe that there was water underground, while some was on the surface, "above the firmament"?"
If you look Gen 1 the waters above are divided by the firmament in which the 'stars' (including the Sun, Moon and planets) were placed from the waters below. those are drawn back into one place (seas) and the dry land appears. I see no mention of water under the earth which which helps no -one's case in any event.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-23-2011 at 01:09 PM..
Let's get something clear here, Theo. Despite the book, my stepping away from the Christian faith was NOT because I was disappointed in god. I don't think there was ever a time when I was, say, disappointed in god because I was conditioned not to even consider the thought. Christians are conditioned to accept that if there is any problem, THEY are ALWAYS the issue why a prayer is not answered or if things do not go their way.
I left Christianity strictly for intellectual reasons and it was AFTER that, I became very disappointed in myself that I wasted over 15 years of my life seeking "first the kingdom of god" and selling out to everything and anything that would further the Gospel. In my day, in a super strict, legalistic atmosphere where "the world" was to be shunned, I passed up on a potential basketball career, opportunities to travel, opportunities to date some more, opportunities to be more involved in school activities and so on. Such things are why I was disappointed in MYSELF. I was well aware no god had anything to do with it. I trusted in a book written by men and (at a point) trusted in people who I believed were entrusted with teaching me divine truth. Pile of crock that was. It makes even more sense now because I do NOT believe the biblical god exists so being disappointed in such a thing would be real stupid. It's like being disappointed santa did not come to my house.
You left The Christian Faith and Worldview due to intellectual reasons ?! You couldnt possibly think this is more intellectually logical :
1. Nothing creating something as incredibly complex and fine tuned as our Universe is so we could have a planet totally suitable to us (out of nothing and unwilled).
2. Human Beings ultimately arriving from accidental unpurposed Pond Scum via dead raw chemicals graduating to having a human brain which even vast technological advances cant duplicate , yet chance and accidents did ?!
3. Blowing off everything to random unpurposed non meaningful accidents upon compilations of accidents when you examine every thing in life .
4. Seeing yourself and humanity having no intrinsic worth or dignity since our origin is a Pond Protozoa .
Are you sure you didnt have some personal ulterior motives for leaving that youre not telling us about ? Every former Atheist ive interviewed did, including myself.
Are you sure you didnt have some personal ulterior motives for leaving that youre not telling us about ? Every former Atheist ive interviewed did, including myself.
Ignoring the rest of your usual tripe, this is really frustrating. Literally no atheist I know has left a faith due to ulterior motives. They all left because they realized it was nonsense. Nothing more or less than that.
You left The Christian Faith and Worldview due to intellectual reasons ?!
Ya, you betcha.
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You couldnt possibly think this is more intellectually logical :
1. Nothing creating something as incredibly complex and fine tuned as our Universe is so we could have a planet totally suitable to us (out of nothing and unwilled).
First of all, the universe is not fine-tuned for human life. Most of the universe is inhospitable to human life -- it would kill you in an instant. Human beings saying that the universe is perfectly fitted for us is like a puddle saying the hole it formed in is perfectly fitted for it. If the universe's constants were different, we would be different, and we would never know otherwise.
Secondly, there are approximately 10 sextillion (10 followed by 21 zeroes -- 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) planets in the observable universe. It makes sense -- based purely on the law of probability -- that at least ONE of these 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets would be suitable for life. We just happened to win the cosmic lottery by evolving on one of the few planets capable of supporting life.
Lastly, yes, I accept that a naturalistic cause created the universe, and nearly all reputable scientists agree with me.
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2. Human Beings ultimately arriving from accidental unpurposed Pond Scum
Science states that humans (and all other lifeforms) evolved from a single-celled organism which may or may not have lived in the water. Hardly "pond scum."
Unpurposed? Yes. Purpose is simply a social construct . . . there is no purpose to anything aside from what we ascribe to it.
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via dead raw chemicals
Not "dead," abiological -- that's why the procedure of life arising is called "abiogenesis." Is your desk "dead?" Are the clothes you are wearing "dead?" No, although they are abiological (the a- meaning "not," just like the a- in a-theist means "not theist"), they are also not "dead." The word "dead" implies something that was formerly living and is no longer. Stop with the straw man arguments.
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graduating to having a human brain which even vast technological advances cant duplicate , yet chance and accidents did ?!
Yes, single-celled life evolved into more complex forms. However, it was not due to random chance. Evolution is not random. Natural selection is not random. Before you argue against evolution, you should learn what evolution actually is.
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3. Blowing off everything to random unpurposed non meaningful accidents upon compilations of accidents when you examine every thing in life .
Straw man.
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4. Seeing yourself and humanity having no intrinsic worth or dignity since our origin is a Pond Protozoa .
Straw man. We did not evolve from pond protozoa. Also, as I mentioned earlier, "human worth" is a social construct. It doesn't exist outside of our own minds and the collective mind of society.
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Are you sure you didnt have some personal ulterior motives for leaving that youre not telling us about ?
Nope. No ulterior motives here!
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Every former Atheist ive interviewed did,
I've never met a former atheist. I know plenty of former Christians who are now atheists, but I have never, never met someone who was an informed atheist (someone who knew the logic and evidence behind atheism) convert to any form of theism, much less Christianity.
By the way, there is no need to capitalize the word "atheist." Atheism is not a religion or belief system -- it is simply the lack of belief in god, and unlike religion, does not play a significant role in people's lives. I am an atheist just like I am an asantaist and an afairyist, but I am not defined by my lack of belief in these things. I am a human being, a son, a brother, a friend, a graduate student, a political scientist in-training, a cat lover, a polyglot, an American, a Michigander, a Childfree person. Those are the things that define me, not my asantaism or my atheism or my aeasterbunnyism.
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including myself.
You were never an atheist, at least not an informed one. You don't seem to understand what atheism is or what atheists believe (and don't believe).
Last edited by northstar22; 11-23-2011 at 01:33 PM..
1. Nothing creating something as incredibly complex and fine tuned as our Universe is so we could have a planet totally suitable to us (out of nothing and unwilled).
The universe is a huge place, and it took, what, a few billion years before a planet was suitable for life. Sure, why not? Works for me. As for what created the universe - I'm not sure. We're still working on figuring that out. But until then, I'm content to say "I don't know yet."
And you have it backwards - the planet wasn't formed to be perfectly suitable to us. Rather, we, and the rest of life on this planet, have evolved to be perfectly suited to the environment we're in.
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2. Human Beings ultimately arriving from accidental unpurposed Pond Scum via dead raw chemicals graduating to having a human brain which even vast technological advances cant duplicate , yet chance and accidents did ?!
Again, this isn't hard to believe. After billions of years of evolution, why not have an advancement of life forms? It didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen in one huge jump. It took a long time. A long, long time. If you had told me that we went from bacteria to humans in 7 days though, then I'd have trouble believing you. But it wasn't 7 days.
And again - chance and accidents aren't really the main force behind evolution. Natural selection is. It was by chance that certain mutations happened, but natural selection dictates that better mutations lead to better-suited offspring. It isn't "random," but predictable. If the planet does increase temperatures 50 degrees suddenly, the offspring with mutations to deal with the increased temperature will live, the ones with with no mutations or poorly adapted mutations will die.
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3. Blowing off everything to random unpurposed non meaningful accidents upon compilations of accidents when you examine every thing in life .
I'm not really sure what your point is here, but my life has tons of purpose, because I interact with friends and family on a daily basis. I exist, I live, I love, I hurt, I eat, I go out and listen to concerts.
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4. Seeing yourself and humanity having no intrinsic worth or dignity since our origin is a Pond Protozoa.
Again, I, and humanity, have plenty of intrinsic worth, for all the reasons listed in point 3.
If you can't see the inherent awesomeness of life without some sort of external validation from on high, that's your problem. I, with many atheists, see our own validation from what we do, the way we live, and how we make the world a better place. It's called life. Live it.
There are two verses that come to mind regarding the OP.
"The things of God are nonsence to the Natural Man". The only thing we Christians should be telling the unsaved about God is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, If He and only if He wills it, that Gospel comes alive to that unsaved person through the action of God through The Holy spirit.
The Gospel is an offence to the Natural Man. To the person who is not regenerated the entire idea of Jesus and what He has done for His people is offensive. If you are witnessing the Gospel and find it never makes people angry than you are probably not witnessing the True message.
You are taught that you deserve nothing and so like Paul you believe that with clothes and food you should be content - otherwise there is something wrong with you.
If your not content you pray for contentment.
If you still do not get it then your motive is wrong -even if you do not realize it - the heart is deceitfully wicked who can know it.
If you do not realize it you pray for God to reveal it so you can move forward with praying for contentment.
It's a constant introspective merry-go-round with endless justifications and rationalizations for the fact that reality does not match-up with the doctrines or idealism of Scripture. Of course another doctrine covers the whole thing - The Fall - how convenient - good luck showing this to be the case.
People are not perfect like Jesus - but neither should they be striving to be perfect like him. This is what your told - become more like Christ each day, deny self, walk in the Spirit, etc., etc. But his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Obviously living the Christian life should be as easy as pie. I do not know one person who thought they arrived to that standard. You're still a fallen creature trying to be like Jesus and yet the Bible tells us that the Spirit and Flesh war against one another - that does not sound like pie to me. Believe me I know all the rationalizations around these apparent bugs in the system - but that is just the point a system that need such manipulations in order to cohere is well - probably not from God - if there is one.
I do not going around sinning up a storm - I am actually pretty much the same person I was before - just without the yoke or the burden.
This psychology is not good for people. It reminds me of Spurgeon who in all his seriousness and integrity (as well as many other Christians) said - the world has yet to see what a man is capable of who is fully submitted to the Lord. Well we never will because it is not possible.
Like you, if I found myself that in dealing with God about issues in my life, there was always the perspective that it was me not God - precisely because God is God and we are fallen creatures deserving of hell and so anything that God does for us is a result of his grace. I did dot stop believing because of disappointment in God - like Job - though he slay yet will I trust him. I stopped because of serious intellectual problems and as such I cannot, in good conscience, believe anymore.
I mean unless you believe that the frontal lobe is a result of the fall I guess you can kick it to the curb and just continue on the merry-go-round.
I find it so odd that a faith that has such high stakes for humanity - eternal hell - has such massive epistemological knots and relies so heavily on a priori axioms and faith. That frontal lobe just keeps getting in the way
You have the Christianese down to a science, man. You're still in the early stages of deconversion.
I spoke like you and we surely shared a similar experience. Words like "deny," "filthy rags," "servant," "humble," "sanctification" and so on were part of my daily vocabulary.
The Gospel is an offence to the Natural Man. To the person who is not regenerated the entire idea of Jesus and what He has done for His people is offensive. If you are witnessing the Gospel and find it never makes people angry than you are probably not witnessing the True message.
If making people angry is the sign of a True message . . . we are in a world of hurt.
There are two verses that come to mind regarding the OP.
"The things of God are nonsence to the Natural Man".
So you have to believe in god in order to believe in god? How is that not circular reasoning?
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The only thing we Christians should be telling the unsaved about God is the Gospel of Jesus Christ,
We are "unsaved" because we have heard the "gospel of Jesus Christ" and have found it erroneous. I can no more "accept Jesus" than I can accept that Santa Claus visits every house on Christmas Eve. I am a non-believer because I have no reason to believe.
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If He and only if He wills it,
"He" probably doesn't exist, so this statement is meaningless.
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that Gospel comes alive to that unsaved person through the action of God through The Holy spirit.
I don't believe in god. I don't believe in the Holy Spirit. How can the gospel "come alive" to me if I have read it and found it wanting?
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The Gospel is an offence to the Natural Man.
The gospel isn't offensive to me, it just doesn't make any sense. I think Jesus was a cool guy, a good teacher.
However, I do find some Biblical concepts very offensive. Yahweh's genocidal rampages in the Old Testament are offensive to me. Paul's misogynistic and homophobic rantings in the New Testament are offensive to me. The Biblical principle of 'blanket forgiveness' is offensive to me.
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To the person who is not regenerated the entire idea of Jesus and what He has done for His people is offensive.
No, it isn't. I like Jesus, and I don't believe in god! I think he, like the Buddha, Gandhi, and Dr. King, was a good, moral teacher, and I know I'm not the only atheist that feels that way.
Put down your Bible and think for yourself.
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If you are witnessing the Gospel and find it never makes people angry than you are probably not witnessing the True message.
Preaching to make people angry . . . you mean like this guy:
You left The Christian Faith and Worldview due to intellectual reasons ?! You couldnt possibly think this is more intellectually logical :
1. Nothing creating something as incredibly complex and fine tuned as our Universe is so we could have a planet totally suitable to us (out of nothing and unwilled).
2. Human Beings ultimately arriving from accidental unpurposed Pond Scum via dead raw chemicals graduating to having a human brain which even vast technological advances cant duplicate , yet chance and accidents did ?!
3. Blowing off everything to random unpurposed non meaningful accidents upon compilations of accidents when you examine every thing in life .
4. Seeing yourself and humanity having no intrinsic worth or dignity since our origin is a Pond Protozoa .
Are you sure you didnt have some personal ulterior motives for leaving that youre not telling us about ? Every former Atheist ive interviewed did, including myself.
Slick move, Theo. Slick move.
Nice, slick way of isolating ONE sentence in my entire post to go down the path of the unknown(s). I'm NOT biting because there are others here who can address those points far better than I. Perhaps it would have been better if you asked me WHAT reasons did I find to leave the faith on an intellectual level?
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