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Rather than give us what other people are saying about Gee's beliefs, why don't you give us the actual words of Gee himself where he claims that he does not accept evolution?
The only creationist here to ever admit they were wrong of something was C34 albeit veiled in a deflection of sorts. He too cited Gee and when proved wrong he retracted.
The "paradox" of the creationist argument is that they always try and fault evolution based on a quote mine as if that would detract from the vast plethora of evidence for evolution.
Trying to disprove what scientists use everyday as accepted tools of the trade in whatever discipline that may be is ludicrous at best. Even I who has better scientific acumen than our dear Mr Wilson Cole does not enter into these discussions lightly.
What is always lacking from the goddunnit counter of creationists is proof of such an event yet they fail time and again and can only ask special pleading for their godz. Whenever we ask "if .......then why...... " questions, we never get any logical answer.
In the end we have to default to science. Science flew us to the moon, Mars and beyond but religion can only fly you into buildings.
The only thing I have ever seen creationists ever do in an attempt to prove creation is try to discredit evolution...The reason the do this is because there is absolutely no evidence for their side of the argument, whereas there is literally tons for evolution.
The only creationist here to ever admit they were wrong of something was C34 albeit veiled in a deflection of sorts. He too cited Gee and when proved wrong he retracted.
The "paradox" of the creationist argument is that they always try and fault evolution based on a quote mine as if that would detract from the vast plethora of evidence for evolution.
Trying to disprove what scientists use everyday as accepted tools of the trade in whatever discipline that may be is ludicrous at best. Even I who has better scientific acumen than our dear Mr Wilson Cole does not enter into these discussions lightly.
What is always lacking from the goddunnit counter of creationists is proof of such an event yet they fail time and again and can only ask special pleading for their godz. Whenever we ask "if .......then why...... " questions, we never get any logical answer.
In the end we have to default to science. Science flew us to the moon, Mars and beyond but religion can only fly you into buildings.
I missed that! There was an 80 page plus thread of quotemining intended to prove that evolutionists themselves admitted that it was false. I remember that we repeatedly posted the context and explained that revising ideas in the light of new information was not the same as saying that the whole thing was false. But I don't ever remembering him admitting that he was wrong - about anything, ever. Though a thunderous silence on some threads seemed to tacitly give assent.
This a wonderful post. It encapsulates better than anything I have seen the utter fundamental falsity of the creationist argument.
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Natural selection "selects" from an already existing gene pool. Most mutations drive species to extinction. The ones that are "selected" are a genetically inferior species that lostinformation.
False. Natural selection 'selects' from those with a mutation that helps them to adapt -either by losing or adding a feature.
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Fossils are evidence for a gigantic world-wide flood.
False. The geological and palaeontological evidence indicates a laying down of strata over millions of years with the simpler animals at the bottom and increasing in development as they go up.
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"Homologous structures" are evidence for a common designer. As Iron is a good metal used in manufacturing used for various objects, Chitin is a good structural protein found in various biological systems. The list goes on an on.
False. It is evidence for organisms with some advantageous feature (eg, chitin, bone, feathers, bipedalism) to succeed.
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Evolution turns out to be mathematically impossible. What we observe is "irreducible complexity". You have a mousetrap, and have only 4/5 of it, you do not catch 4/5 the amount of mice. You catch zero mice. It doesn't work without all the pieces working as a unit. Irreducible complexity can't evolve.
Behe's irreducible complexity argument has been totally discredited, his mousetrap analogy demonstrated false. It is quite feasible for an organism to function without a particular feature. The problem is with trying to argue that biology works like a mechanism.
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Chicken or egg problem.. DNA or Protein... DNA replication is enzyme (proteins in themselves) dependent which is a 3/4 self-correcting digital code. You don't only need the DNA you need a cell membrane and cell WALL really (without it the cell undergoes lysis due to osmosis). Look up the structure of a cell membrane and cell wall.
It is deliberately short - sighted to raise questions about how how DNA, cells or eggs developed without all the needed features being present at the outset and to use that as a basis for claiming that it couldn't happen.
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Bottom line is Evolution didn't happen. It requires MORE FAITH to believe in this foolish Religious ideology masquerading as "Science". This idea survives on funding.
It required Faith to dismiss the museumfuls of evidence for evolution on the basis of a few unanswered questions and a heap of false arguments. It doesn't take Faith to accept the evidence as the better explanation than one that not only explains nothing but is contradicted by the evidence.
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We simply have people in high places that want to indoctrinate YOU and your kids into their RELIGIOUS ideology. Do we teach evolution or intelligent design to our children in public schools? These people in high places are spending plenty of money (they own it) to pay their false religious Priests to tickle their ears that there is no creator. With no creator there is no rules or accountability. No eternal damnation - Lake of Fire.
We teach evolution in the science class as it is science. ID isn't. We teach creation in the religion class and not evolution because it isn't religion, despite your bit of projection. Since you and yours would love to see people in high places who want to indoctrinate us and our kids with their false religious theories of Goddunnit creation and they have plenty of money to push their agenda. Of course you see the opposition as behaving the same way.
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Hitler once said you give him the public schools, and in a generation he'll have the nation. (<paraphrase) He wanted to establish the Human "Aryan" SUPER RACE. All that HE didn't deem worthy were SLAUGHTERED in death camps. True evil doesn't exist? Do some research on WHY Hitler did what he did. Evolution ideologies eventually lead to genocide. We see this again and again when ruthless dictators indoctrinated into Evolution ideologies establish power. All "inferior" races >>> the JEWS and Christians Primarily in their eyes, are deemed expendable.
Hitler believed in God.
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Behind all the creation/evolution debates is a spiritual war. History repeats itself. We learn nothing from history.
Just as in the flat -earth debate there was a 'spiritual war' aspect. The earth is not flat. Neither is biology intelligently designed.
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Indoctrinate generations of children and you have a nation brainwashed. It is exactly what we are seeing. There is zero evidence for evolution because it hasn't happened. Check out the video for yourself. Evolution should have been thrown in the trash over 60 years ago.
Hovind is as uninformed about evolution theory as are you. We have half the nation brainwashed with this religion - based (as it for sure ain't based on science) Creationism. It should have been shredded decades ago. It is only ignorance, Faith and Theist money that is keeping it going - oh, and too few people daring to speak up against this nonsense.
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Think of this.. If there is a creator, and YOU reject him, what happens to you? If there isn't a creator, but you wagered he did, what do you lose?
If it's Allah, what do you lose? If there isn't an afterlife, we at least don't waste the life we have and the lives of those who come after in rotting our brains with nonsense, and if there is an afterlife, no one god is there handing out entry tickets. We all get it as naturally as we all get a birth. Atheism gets you everything. If there is a God, you lose everything - if you bet on the wrong one.
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It's called Pascal's Wager. Not only is there overwhelming evidence that YHWH God is the creator/redeemer, it makes zero sense rationally to conclude he doesn't exist.
Oh, I know. It's essentially a fallacious argument. Not only is there little or no evidence for any god, let alone Biblegod, but it is logically, evidentially and rationally correct to not believe in a god without any good evidence. The crummy hellfire threats of Blaise Pascal and the fatheaded ignorance of the Hovinds and Comforts does not constitute evidence.
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Isaiah 66
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Salvation from perdition is a free gift to any who pursue in Messiah Jesus. It's the good news of the gospel. Hell can be avoided by the work of what Jesus did on that cross bearing the wrath of the curse. All we have to do is accept it by faith.
It is a decision you will NEVER regret. It is a choice though. The worst thing we can do is reject God's love. We have no idea what it means to be eternally separated from the source of all that is good in God with NO HOPE. Don't let that happen to you. It's sad the rich guy in Sheol recorded in Luke 16 was conscious of his previous life when he asked to send someone to his brothers to convince them to repent.
Eternal conscious regret of our life with no hope? Please don't reject God's love in Messiah.
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18
This life is our window of opportunity. What is this physical dimension of time?
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
God created us for fellowship. He wants all to come to him. A just Judge must judge sin. The Wages of sin is death. Christ paid the penalty for all that accept it. All that don't will have to pay their own way. Our works without Messiah lead to eternal damnation because we have rejected the love of God.
Preach, brother
Many a former Creation - believing fundamentalist has come to see that the god - claims do not stack up, Creationism is totally non - science and the bible is a flawed and unbelievable document. The common feeling they had from discarding this irrational Faith was a feeling of freedom and release from having to close their eyes to the strong evidence that it had no rational and evidential basis.
Try, for once, to set aside faith - based bias and look at the evidence, for and against with a truly open mind, rather than going to the least well informed (though the most publicly vociferous) for you views. Think for yourself and then let us reason together. You won't regret it.
Are you certain that you want to quote from someone who believes that the Flintstones is a documentary?
That's actually more credible than a lot of the support for creationism in this thread, since it's at least honestly representing the views of the person being quoted...
The guy you are quoting is not only a biased creationist, but somewhat of a nut...No credibility there...
Steven Earl Jones is an American physicist. For most of his career, Jones was known mainly for his work on muon-catalyzed fusion. In the fall of 2006, amid controversy surrounding his work on the collapse of the World Trade Center (Jones has produced alleged evidence showing it was destroyed by controlled demolition during the September 11 attacks), he was relieved of his teaching duties and placed on paid leave from Brigham Young University. He retired on October 20, 2006 with the status of Professor Emeritus. Steven E. Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You are lashing out in desperation!
Refute the statements in the quote - if you can. Do you want me to take the statements sentence by sentence and submit them for your devastating refutation?
.
I don't give three blanks about Mr Jones.
Is there something in that quote that is wrong?
Yes there is something wrong - in the WAY that you use the quote.
Never mind me!
So - show me something wrong - in the quote itself.
Here is part of it again. None of these words are mine so I have made no attempt to twist them in any direction:
"The consequence of all this, the cladists insist, is that all the old paraphernalia of evolutionary explanations must be dismissed as unscientific speculation. All we can do is assess degrees of relationship. We cannot identify ancestors or "missing links," and we cannot devise testable theories to explain how particular episodes of evolution came about." Evolution - March 2000: Re: Beyond the Fossil Record ...
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Have you read Gee's books? Any of them? If you had, then you would know that he is a paleontologist who certainly has done work in the field of evolution science. He isn't saying that evolution is wrong or that it is no longer relevant. He is saying that people like you and the way this work was done years ago are wrong.
This is just another accusation on your part.
I have not tried to "explain" anything in that quote - have I?
I have not claimed that Gee is against evolution - have I?
In fact, I believe he is a very strong evolutionist.
But he is willing to face the flaws in your theory, even if you aren't.
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Evolution has not collapsed nor will it likely collapse in the future.
Frankly, I think it will. Mr Gee has only supplied a small pin that can be stuck into that highly inflated theory, now elevated to the role of creator by men like you. Like Brook Benton sang: "It's Just a Matter Of Time."
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All he is saying is that like every scientific endeavor, it changes, it evolves based on new information and new ways of gathering and analyzing the information. He is saying that fossil evidence, though highly useful, is much more limited in the amount of detail it can bring to bear than other evidence such as genomic studies of modern species.
Why do I need you to tell me what he is saying? He wrote it in clear English which happens to be my native tongue, just like yours.
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What doesn't tell us anything is the religious mantra "God did it".
The only creationist here to ever admit they were wrong of something was C34 albeit veiled in a deflection of sorts. He too cited Gee and when proved wrong he retracted.
The "paradox" of the creationist argument is that they always try and fault evolution based on a quote mine as if that would detract from the vast plethora of evidence for evolution.
Trying to disprove what scientists use everyday as accepted tools of the trade in whatever discipline that may be is ludicrous at best. Even I who has better scientific acumen than our dear Mr Wilson Cole does not enter into these discussions lightly.
What is always lacking from the goddunnit counter of creationists is proof of such an event yet they fail time and again and can only ask special pleading for their godz. Whenever we ask "if .......then why...... " questions, we never get any logical answer.
In the end we have to default to science. Science flew us to the moon, Mars and beyond but religion can only fly you into buildings.
Your sarcasm may puff up your ego, but it does not supply an adequate response to the fact that Gee is willing to admit that the fossil record does not and cannot show common ancestry. I would like you to show me how it does.
False. Natural selection 'selects' from those with a mutation that helps them to adapt -either by losing or adding a feature.
The point still stands. While a mutation may be beneficial for survival in a particular situation, it still accounts for a LOSS of INFORMATION not a gain. That particular mutation won't improve survival for ALL situations and doesn't CREATE a more advanced CREATURE - just one more adapted to that particular situation. DNA is information. We never see NEW INFORMATION in mutations. Maybe a copy, but not NEW INFORMATION. It requires a HUGE LEAP OF FAITH to believe the complexity we see in nature has evolved in a series of reactions that are merely speculated throughout eons of time reached through assumptions that evolution is true.
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False. The geological and palaeontological evidence indicates a laying down of strata over millions of years with the simpler animals at the bottom and increasing in development as they go up.
The "Geological column" is based on circular reasoning and doesn't exist anywhere in nature but in the textbooks. Columns are dated by the bones, the bones are dated by the columns. Radiometric dating is not consistent in its findings and is based on a number of assumptions that are taken as absolute fact not taking into account "limiting factors" that suggest a much younger Earth.
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False. It is evidence for organisms with some advantageous feature (eg, chitin, bone, feathers, bipedalism) to succeed.
Evolution is mathematically impossible. It is irrational to conclude that it did. So any proposed FACT based upon it doesn't hold up. So called Homologous Structures are evidence for a common designer. Evidence for ID is everywhere you look. The WATER MOLECULE IN ITSELF IS PHENOMENAL EVIDENCE FOR DESIGN! Could such a strange molecule with so many unique properties evolve? That requires great FAITH. It certainly isn't observed. We can conclude someone created the computer. We can't conclude that it created itself through a series of random accidents into the complex machinery we see. That is logical.
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Behe's irreducible complexity argument has been totally discredited, his mousetrap analogy demonstrated false. It is quite feasible for an organism to function without a particular feature. The problem is with trying to argue that biology works like a mechanism.
Provide an example of how we have observed something that has discredited this, and I WILL SHOW YOU HOW IT HAS NOT DISCREDITED IT.
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It is deliberately short - sighted to raise questions about how how DNA, cells or eggs developed without all the needed features being present at the outset and to use that as a basis for claiming that it couldn't happen.
This is a faith-based response. What we observe is that a cell MUST have an integration of components to sustain. This is ELEMENTARY BIOLOGY taught to my sixth graders. It requires a MIRACLE to believe that it has evolved. God is in the Miracle working business. Natural Selection isn't. Miracles could simply be a technology statement. Everything exists as though it has always existed. thus the existence of cycles. We know it had a beginning however - that is why there is even a debate. It had a beginning and it will have an end. Can an ecological/biological cycle evolve? Only in the School textbooks.
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It required Faith to dismiss the museumfuls of evidence for evolution on the basis of a few unanswered questions and a heap of false arguments. It doesn't take Faith to accept the evidence as the better explanation than one that not only explains nothing but is contradicted by the evidence.
We teach evolution in the science class as it is science. ID isn't. We teach creation in the religion class and not evolution because it isn't religion, despite your bit of projection. Since you and yours would love to see people in high places who want to indoctrinate us and our kids with their false religious theories of Goddunnit creation and they have plenty of money to push their agenda. Of course you see the opposition as behaving the same way.
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Hitler believed in God.
Sure he did <sarcasm. That's why he chose to SLAUGHTER God's people. Do some more homework here. Hitler's Bible was Helena P. Blavatsky's "The Secret Doctrine." The man thought he was doing the world a favor by murdering what he deemed an INFERIOR RACE. His entire world view was based on EVOLUTION PROGRAMING.Racism has its roots in EVOLUTION THEOLOGY.
Just as in the flat -earth debate there was a 'spiritual war' aspect. The earth is not flat. Neither is biology intelligently designed.
Hovind is as uninformed about evolution theory as are you. We have half the nation brainwashed with this religion - based (as it for sure ain't based on science) Creationism. It should have been shredded decades ago. It is only ignorance, Faith and Theist money that is keeping it going - oh, and too few people daring to speak up against this nonsense.
If it's Allah, what do you lose? If there isn't an afterlife, we at least don't waste the life we have and the lives of those who come after in rotting our brains with nonsense, and if there is an afterlife, no one god is there handing out entry tickets. We all get it as naturally as we all get a birth. Atheism gets you everything. If there is a God, you lose everything - if you bet on the wrong one.
Oh, I know. It's essentially a fallacious argument. Not only is there little or no evidence for any god, let alone Biblegod, but it is logically, evidentially and rationally correct to not believe in a god without any good evidence. The crummy hellfire threats of Blaise Pascal and the fatheaded ignorance of the Hovinds and Comforts does not constitute evidence.
Preach, brother
Many a former Creation - believing fundamentalist has come to see that the god - claims do not stack up, Creationism is totally non - science and the bible is a flawed and unbelievable document. The common feeling they had from discarding this irrational Faith was a feeling of freedom and release from having to close their eyes to the strong evidence that it had no rational and evidential basis.
Try, for once, to set aside faith - based bias and look at the evidence, for and against with a truly open mind, rather than going to the least well informed (though the most publicly vociferous) for you views. Think for yourself and then let us reason together. You won't regret it.[/quote]If the Evolution folks want to cling to their RELIGION so be it. It requires great FAITH to believe that we all have evolved from a series of chemical reactions billions of years ago which are not observed.
In the end, we will find out. Truth is absolute, not relative to our opinion.
IF you are accountable to a creator, AND YOU REJECT HIM, what is at stake for YOU?
The so Called "New Aquarian Age" will have a very short life. The same ideology Hitler had is about to resurface on a global scale. Reject the truth, and God will send you delusion (Romans 1; 2 Thessalonians 2).
Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
2 Thessalonians 2
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now restrains will restrain, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Now is the time. When we leave this physical plane of existence it will be WITHOUT repentance.Luke 16
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Notice the guy REMEMBERED HIS previous life. ETERNAL regret about rejecting the CREATOR? Is that your destiny? I sure hope not.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 01-06-2012 at 12:39 PM..
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