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Another point... if God truly wanted him/her/itself to be the focal point of our mortal lives, just where is god exactly?
Maybe God is to us what we are to ants. A mysterious force randomly blotting out lives. Whereas we (and God) are pretty much oblivious to what we have done to such lesser creatures.
I agree it is far more valuable to discover or "earn" something for oneself.
For example, my dad bought me a car when I went off to college. BUT When I graduated, I went and bought my own. Which did I value more? The one I bught with my money, of course.
Such it is with religion and spirituality. I posed over and over again many questions to Christians over the years. One I often ask is "WHy do YOU believe the Bible is the "word of God" you know, so far, not a single one has been able to answer that? Many have tried, mostly by saying "it jsut is" when pressed, as in asking why do you believe it, it often comes back to the fact that they were told this by someone of authority, a clergy, a parent, a grandparent. For many, this belief sets up at childhood.....they are told something and as kids, believe it, especially when they hear it over and over again. kind of like Santa Claus, eh ?
Should someone find an answer to a question by some mystical means then what value is that knowledge over having been told an answer all along?
Kind of like when my kid gets the Games magazine and looks the answers up every time he is stumped. If I get stuck on a particular puzzle I will put it aside for a while and ome back to it. yes he may have the answer, but he does not have the how , the why, the experience and the lesson learned of FINDING those answers himself. Not to mention the rassurance and satisfaction of having learned something and figured something out. Science and reason offer this, faith and superstition do not.
I agree it is far more valuable to discover or "earn" something for oneself.
For example, my dad bought me a car when I went off to college. BUT When I graduated, I went and bought my own. Which did I value more? The one I bught with my money, of course.
Such it is with religion and spirituality. I posed over and over again many questions to Christians over the years. One I often ask is "WHy do YOU believe the Bible is the "word of God" you know, so far, not a single one has been able to answer that? Many have tried, mostly by saying "it jsut is" when pressed, as in asking why do you believe it, it often comes back to the fact that they were told this by someone of authority, a clergy, a parent, a grandparent. For many, this belief sets up at childhood.....they are told something and as kids, believe it, especially when they hear it over and over again. kind of like Santa Claus, eh ?
Should someone find an answer to a question by some mystical means then what value is that knowledge over having been told an answer all along?
Kind of like when my kid gets the Games magazine and looks the answers up every time he is stumped. If I get stuck on a particular puzzle I will put it aside for a while and ome back to it. yes he may have the answer, but he does not have the how , the why, the experience and the lesson learned of FINDING those answers himself. Not to mention the rassurance and satisfaction of having learned something and figured something out. Science and reason offer this, faith and superstition do not.
Wow. I find that amazing that not a single one has been able to answer that question. I have read entire books based solely on answering that question alone. Try looking up Lee Stroebel's A Case for Christ. For me, I beleive it is the Word of God because of many factors, such as how it was compiled, the diversity of authors coupled with the time it spans, the cohesiveness of its message, and the historicity of Christ. However, for me the biggest factors are the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation. The Book of Daniel charts out the rise and fall of majors empires starting with the Babylonian empire, and going all the way through to the fall of Papal Rome in 1798 when General Berthier marched into Rome and demanded that the Pope renounce his temporal authority. Revelation picks up the prophetic torch, and speaks of a time when Papal Rome will reclaim its temporal authority, and once again seek to assert that authority over the will of mankind. A cursory reading of Revelation 13 states that in the final days of earths history, a power will arise that is chiefly concerned with the manner in which people worship, and this power that is concerned with how poeple worship, will reach a point where it will have the power to limit peoples ability to buy/sell based on who they worship.
here you have the earths foremost entity concerend with who and how people worship, showing a desire for a single entity to control the worlds economy (how people buy/sell). For years I have understood that my country would one day render its constitution meaningless, and set up laws that would trample on a person's freedom of religion. I see the groundwork for that being laid down with the passge of the PATRIOT ACT, National Defense Authorization Act, and the Enemy Expatriation Act. I am a Protestant Christian, but unlike the majority of Protestants, I believe that the 10 Commandments are still valid, in their entirety. That means that I believe that the 7th day is the Sabbath, contrary to what the Papacy asserts, that Sunday is the Sabbath. Protestantism failed in its protest of Papal authority when it failed to realize that nowhere in scripture is there found any mention of the transference of the Sabbath from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week. This nation is heavily influenced by protestants that follow Papal Rome in regard to their veneration of Sunday as a Holy day of rest. Soon, I believe, you will see laws begin to arise that force an adherance to rest on Sunday, then they will be followed by stricter laws that will require an individual to violate the sanctity of the 7th day Sabbath if they wish to buy/sell. I could go on but I'd be surprised if you read half this post.
Now, regarding your question of "WHy do YOU believe the Bible is the "word of God"" you can no longer say "not a single one has been able to answer that?"
Wow. I find that amazing that not a single one has been able to answer that question. I have read entire books based solely on answering that question alone. Try looking up Lee Stroebel's A Case for Christ. For me, I beleive it is the Word of God because of many factors, such as how it was compiled, the diversity of authors coupled with the time it spans, the cohesiveness of its message, and the historicity of Christ. However, for me the biggest factors are the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation. The Book of Daniel charts out the rise and fall of majors empires starting with the Babylonian empire, and going all the way through to the fall of Papal Rome in 1798 when General Berthier marched into Rome and demanded that the Pope renounce his temporal authority. Revelation picks up the prophetic torch, and speaks of a time when Papal Rome will reclaim its temporal authority, and once again seek to assert that authority over the will of mankind. A cursory reading of Revelation 13 states that in the final days of earths history, a power will arise that is chiefly concerned with the manner in which people worship, and this power that is concerned with how poeple worship, will reach a point where it will have the power to limit peoples ability to buy/sell based on who they worship.
here you have the earths foremost entity concerend with who and how people worship, showing a desire for a single entity to control the worlds economy (how people buy/sell). For years I have understood that my country would one day render its constitution meaningless, and set up laws that would trample on a person's freedom of religion. I see the groundwork for that being laid down with the passge of the PATRIOT ACT, National Defense Authorization Act, and the Enemy Expatriation Act. I am a Protestant Christian, but unlike the majority of Protestants, I believe that the 10 Commandments are still valid, in their entirety. That means that I believe that the 7th day is the Sabbath, contrary to what the Papacy asserts, that Sunday is the Sabbath. Protestantism failed in its protest of Papal authority when it failed to realize that nowhere in scripture is there found any mention of the transference of the Sabbath from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week. This nation is heavily influenced by protestants that follow Papal Rome in regard to their veneration of Sunday as a Holy day of rest. Soon, I believe, you will see laws begin to arise that force an adherance to rest on Sunday, then they will be followed by stricter laws that will require an individual to violate the sanctity of the 7th day Sabbath if they wish to buy/sell. I could go on but I'd be surprised if you read half this post.
Now, regarding your question of "WHy do YOU believe the Bible is the "word of God"" you can no longer say "not a single one has been able to answer that?"
Well thank You !
I had mentioned on a post last year about a client I got who was very religious and totally without moral it would eem. And he too was one of these Bible believers (I refere to them as Biblians) who wanted to ask off the topic (Which was his health and welfare) if I was into Bible Study I mentioned some fascinating things I had read about the Gnostics, and mentioned an orthodox movement involveing Agnacius, and how interesting it was that Augustine held such an influence, and the workings and goings on at the Synod of Laodicea really show that the Bible was a man made document with a most interesting agenda
He had no idea what/who I was talking about. .
I want to point out that for many people this is a perplexing argument. You are showing the time and research you have put into your hypothesis. This is more than I have encountered from others. Most just say "Well it just is"
I ran a couple of guys off a few years ago. They knocked on my door, one of them immediately started reading something from the Bible, and said "God has told us this in his word..." I asked him how and why he thinks that is "gods word" I pointed out that what he was reading was written by Paul, not God, and it was the writings of a man not a god (I do not Follow Paul's theology anyway) He just kept staring downward, made no eyecontact with me, said Uh....well......uh.........
I said BYE
That is a more normal response That and Well "everything in it is true and accurate" Well everything may be accurate in accordance with what people believed 2000=5000, but not according to NOW and now we know that many of these legends and myths are things that have been shown through teh scientific and archeological record to have never happened, including but not limited to, the Garden of Eden, a walking nsake that devolved to a legleess creature 1200 years ago, a 12000 year old planet, a tower that collapsed resulting in the formation of different languages, a river parting, a flood that detroyed the whole earth, a thousand year old human, some guy being raidesed from the dead, some king killing off all the male children in Jeruselm (Or bethlehem or wherever) Some guy rising from the dea, some god requiring scarifices to appease himself, some guy who already rose from the dead saying he will return within one generation and never showing up....need I go on? I could but this thread is getting WAY TOO LONG already
SO should I discover that "god" exists in some form, (As in a Buddhist concept of the ultimate personal reality) and endorse it as suchwithout the constraint of religious doctrine or dogma, would a religious person be able to see this, or in their sight would I still be an atheist because I failed to recognize god in the way that their religion dictates.?
I had mentioned on a post last year about a client I got who was very religious and totally without moral it would eem. And he too was one of these Bible believers (I refere to them as Biblians) who wanted to ask off the topic (Which was his health and welfare) if I was into Bible Study I mentioned some fascinating things I had read about the Gnostics, and mentioned an orthodox movement involveing Agnacius, and how interesting it was that Augustine held such an influence, and the workings and goings on at the Synod of Laodicea really show that the Bible was a man made document with a most interesting agenda
He had no idea what/who I was talking about. .
I want to point out that for many people this is a perplexing argument. You are showing the time and research you have put into your hypothesis. This is more than I have encountered from others. Most just say "Well it just is"
I ran a couple of guys off a few years ago. They knocked on my door, one of them immediately started reading something from the Bible, and said "God has told us this in his word..." I asked him how and why he thinks that is "gods word" I pointed out that what he was reading was written by Paul, not God, and it was the writings of a man not a god (I do not Follow Paul's theology anyway) He just kept staring downward, made no eyecontact with me, said Uh....well......uh.........
I said BYE
That is a more normal response That and Well "everything in it is true and accurate" Well everything may be accurate in accordance with what people believed 2000=5000, but not according to NOW and now we know that many of these legends and myths are things that have been shown through teh scientific and archeological record to have never happened, including but not limited to, the Garden of Eden, a walking nsake that devolved to a legleess creature 1200 years ago, a 12000 year old planet, a tower that collapsed resulting in the formation of different languages, a river parting, a flood that detroyed the whole earth, a thousand year old human, some guy being raidesed from the dead, some king killing off all the male children in Jeruselm (Or bethlehem or wherever) Some guy rising from the dea, some god requiring scarifices to appease himself, some guy who already rose from the dead saying he will return within one generation and never showing up....need I go on? I could but this thread is getting WAY TOO LONG already
SO should I discover that "god" exists in some form, (As in a Buddhist concept of the ultimate personal reality) and endorse it as suchwithout the constraint of religious doctrine or dogma, would a religious person be able to see this, or in their sight would I still be an atheist because I failed to recognize god in the way that their religion dictates.?
I can understand your dealings with other Christians as I too have frequently encountered many professed Christians who know very little about the Bible or the faith they claim to follow. I coworker of mine once made a statement that has stuck with me over the years; he said something to the effect of "you should never allow a religion to define your beliefs, your beliefs should be what determines your religion", since then I made it a personal goal to understand what I believe in first and then determine if there was a group that shared my beliefs.
I fully understand that God did not physically write the Bible**, however those that did, did so through inspiration from God. They were not necessarily saying it in the exact manner God would have said it, but he inspired which of their thoughts to write down and guided the process of what became scripture and what did not. In the end I believe God looked at the final product and said "I am God, and I approve this message".
Don't have the time to address each thing you mentioned, but regarding the last point about when Christ said He would return. Matt 24:34 "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." In this verse Christ was speaking about last day events. Things that would precede His second coming (such as the things I mentioned in my previous post). His comment about "this" generation, was in reference to the generation that would witness the signs of the end He was talking about. Essentially He was saying that from the start of last day events to His second coming, would not take longer than a generation.
**There is one part of scripture that God actually did write with His own hand. He personally carved the 10 Commandments in stone with His own finger.
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