Man in our imange. More then one God? (Israel, quote, baptize)
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Whoppers, you're the best poster in the Religion and Philosophy forum. You provide excellent information in clear concise posts. Kudos! I'm writing this because I can't rep you right now.
As an extreme amateur in this matter, is the Lady Wisdom you speak of Sophia? Synonymous?
The English word "God" is actually a translation of the Hebrew "Aleim" which is transliterated as "Elohim" in English. Elohim can be plural. Elohim can also be a collective singular. When Jesus told the Jews "Did I not say ye are gods" in the Hebrew this would be "ye are elohim." Elohim were the arbiters or subjectors.
The Greek Septuagint translated "Elohim" as "Theos" from which we also get "God" or "god" as the case may be. In Genesis the LXX translated "Elohim" as "Theos."
I've had this argument with my Christian familymembers several times, and if you read the Bible, it is clear that jesus is not God. Was Jesus praying to himself when he prayed? Not to mention the droves of versus where Jesus refers to the Father, or His Father.
It can easily be interpreted that God and Jesus are "as one" but they are not one in the same.
Three in One.
Matthew 1:23
“The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” —which means, “God with us.”
If Jesus is "god" in a lesser sense than the Father, then there would have two different gods. But if He is "god" in a different sense than the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God.
And then there is this verse.
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Whoppers, you're the best poster in the Religion and Philosophy forum. You provide excellent information in clear concise posts. Kudos! I'm writing this because I can't rep you right now.
As an extreme amateur in this matter, is the Lady Wisdom you speak of Sophia? Synonymous?
Wow - thanks for the compliment!
Indeed, when it made the transition to Greek it was indeed Sophia! Good observation!
The Wisdom of Ben Sirach gives more information on Wisdom and the personification of it as Lady Wisdom. The book is a late work originally written in Hebrew, and translated into Greek by the author's grandson. In the original Hebrew, Wisdom is ḥokmâ, and in the Greek it is sophia. Ben Sirach also gives Philo, and then the Gospel of John inspiration in a verse that results in the logos theou ("the word of God"):
The wellspring of wisdom is the word of God in the heights,
and its runlets are the ageless commandments.
(Sirach 1:5, AB)
A connection in John's mystical thought begins to appear, yes? A shame that those advocating Jesus as the one spoken of in Proverbs, Ben Sirach and other places have not taken the time to double-check their own reading of John, and John's reading!
Ben Sirach makes much more usage of Lady Wisdom in his work, and it truly is fascinating. The book begins thus:
All wisdom is from the Lord,
and with him it remains forever.
The sand of the seashores, the drops of rain,
the days of eternity: who can number these?
Heaven's height, earth's breadth,
the depths of the abyss: who can fathom these?
Before all things else wisdom was created,
and prudent understanding, from eternity.
To whom has wisdom's root been revealed?
Who knows her subtleties?
There is but one, wise and truly awe-inspiring,
seated upon his throne, the Lord.
He it is who fashioned her, has seen her and taken note of her;
he has poured her forth upon all his works,
Upon every living thing according to his bounty,
he has lavished her upopn his friends.
(Ben Sirach 1:1-10)
He offers us an excellent poem on Wisdom in Chapter 24. She is even present in the Divine Council - those gods that El (God), and later - Yahweh (according to a poem of hostile takeover) presided over:
Wisdom sings her own praises,
among her own people she proclaims her glory;
In the assembly of the Most High she opens her mouth,
in the presence of his host she declares her worth:
"From the mouth of the Most High I came forth,
and mistlike covered the earth.
In the heights of heaven I dwelt,
my throne on a pillar of cloud.
The vault of heaven I compassed alone,
through the deep abyss I took my course.
Over waves of the sea, over all the land,
over every people and nation I held sway.
Among them all I sought a resting place:
in whose inheritance should I abide?
Then the Fashioner of all gave me his command,
and he who made me chose the spot for my tent,
Saying, 'In Jacob make your dwelling,
in Israel your inheritance.'
Before the ages, from the first, he created me,
and through the ages I shall not cease to be.
In the holy Tent I ministered before him,
and then in Zion I took up my post.
In the city he loves as he does me, he gave me rest;
in Jerusalem is my domain.
I have struck root among the glorious people;
in the portion of the Lord is my inheritance."
(Ben Sirach 24:1-12)
What a wonderful poem to Wisdom, and her esteemed status alongside God. It's no wonder that she was later appropriated by those wishing to see Jesus in her as the one created of old (wrongly, I would emphatically add). An increasing monotheism must have also contributed to her waning in the hearts and minds of the people who loved her. A shame.
Plato understood the main goal of philosophy as "the love of Sophia" - or, "the love of Lady Wisdom". One wonders if Ben Sirach's words of how she mistlike "covered the earth" were true. Of course, as a Jewish writer - I'm sure you noticed that he was partial to Hebrew tradition, for it is in Israel that Wisdom makes her final abode, according to him. But the previous Wisdom literature of Israel's writers didn't necessarily make this concrete exclusiveness. Athens and Israel shared Lady Wisdom, it appears. Job 28 offers a wonderful Hymn to Wisdom and how difficult it is to find.
In addition - it shows a definite goddess motif. I often wonder if the account in Genesis 2-3 of the Tree of the Knowing of Good and Bad (basically, a merism that essentially meant all knowledge) was a polemic against the worship of Lady Wisdom. Perhaps the author was not too fond of Lady Wisdom and portrayed her worship in that fateful tree. Who knows? It would certainly fit the later mentions of goddess worship in which a wooden tree-like object was associated with goddess worship. Many scholars may associate that later tree as a representation of a tree of life (of which the ancient Near East gives many visual representations), but I am curious as to whether it wasn't the other way around: a tree of Lady Wisdom. For isn't that our curse? We chose Wisdom over eternal Life as a much more rewarding fate? What is eternal life, without Lady Wisdom at our side?
The English word "God" is actually a translation of the Hebrew "Aleim" which is transliterated as "Elohim" in English. Elohim can be plural. Elohim can also be a collective singular. When Jesus told the Jews "Did I not say ye are gods" in the Hebrew this would be "ye are elohim." Elohim were the arbiters or subjectors.
The Greek Septuagint translated "Elohim" as "Theos" from which we also get "God" or "god" as the case may be. In Genesis the LXX translated "Elohim" as "Theos."
"Aleim"? What's that made-up word? You obviously don't know the difference between a "translation" and a "transliteration" heh heh!
Here, let me help you.
אֱלֹהִ֔ים is the Hebrew word translated as "God" or "gods" (the word is a plural form usually used with singular verbs) - the meaning depending on it's context. elohim is the transliteration into Latin characters of the Hebrew word without diactritical marks. "God" or "gods" is the translation into English of the Hebrew word.
See folks, it helps if you know what you're talking about when you try to explain things you don't really understand. Like the difference between a "translation" and a "transliteration".
"Aleim"? What's that made-up word? You obviously don't know the difference between a "translation" and a "transliteration" heh heh!
Here, let me help you.
אֱלֹהִ֔ים is the Hebrew word translated as "God" or "gods" (the word is a plural form usually used with singular verbs) - the meaning depending on it's context. elohim is the transliteration into Latin characters of the Hebrew word without diactritical marks. "God" or "gods" is the translation into English of the Hebrew word.
See folks, it helps if you know what you're talking about when you try to explain things you don't really understand. Like the difference between a "translation" and a "transliteration".
The Hebrew letters are אֱלֹהִ֔ים from left to right ALEIM.
The ENGLISH equivalent of ALEIM is the Anglicized transliterated word
"ELOHIM." That, I assure you, in spite of what whoppers says, is not
"Latin." "Elohim" is English. Look it up in the Concordant Literal Old
Testament which is the ENGLISH translation and you will see "Elohim."
Other forms of transliteration in our English bibles are:
Christos to Christ
Baptizo to Baptize
Paulos to Paul
just to name a few. I guarantee these are not Latin transliterations but English.
See folks, it helps if you know what you are talking about when you try to
explain things you don't really understand. Like the difference between a
"translation" and a "transliteration."
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