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I’ve always heard people ask this question of the christian God. If God is real, why doesn’t He come and show Himself to us, and speak for Himself, versus having His “prophets” speak for Him? I like to answer this question by giving what I am now calling the “Star Argument”.
Let me ask everyone this question. What would happen to the earth if it was suddenly placed a hundred miles from the sun? Scientifically speaking, I imagine many reactions would take place, but in layman’s terms the earth would basically be consumed by the excess of heat and energy coming from the sun. Now, our sun is certainly not the hottest, nor is it the biggest star in our universe. Yet if we were to place the earth next to a white dwarf star, I imagine the same process would take place. (Albeit slower) So if this happens to our planet against the smallest of stars, what would happen if the Creator of those stars, whose glory outshines all the stars and galaxies in the universe combined, all of a sudden showed up on earth? I imagine not only the earth would be consumed, but the very universe itself would also perish! In comparison, God’s glory makes the sun look like a black dot.
Now with all that said, some of you will say “Well if He’s God, He should be able to show Himself to us without consuming us in His glory.” This will be God revealing Himself in a cloaked form. Remember when God revealed Himself to Moses out of the burning bush? That was a cloaked form. Remember when God lead the people of Israel out of Egypt with the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night? That was God in a cloaked form, God was inside the pillar of cloud and pillar of fire, and He was walking in the midst of it. The Angel of the Lord, the Person who appeared before Joshua, all of these were God in a cloaked form. God once told Moses that he couldn’t see His face and live, but that as He is walking through, He would cover Moses with His hand and afterward Moses could see His back. This is the star argument in a nutshell, and all of this lead up to God revealing Himself by becoming the Man Jesus.
There you have it; this is why God does not reveal Himself to us directly. If He did, we would all die. It’s for our own good that He didn’t reveal Himself directly.
excellent! It's so sad so many on here won't be with the glory you speak of because they've rejecting God's free gift of life revealed in Christ.(Ephesians 2:8-10)(Romans 4,5).
It's not too late folks, but time does look to be short now.
I’ve always heard people ask this question of the christian God. If God is real, why doesn’t He come and show Himself to us, and speak for Himself, versus having His “prophets” speak for Him? I like to answer this question by giving what I am now calling the “Star Argument”.
Let me ask everyone this question. What would happen to the earth if it was suddenly placed a hundred miles from the sun?
Edited because of the extreme scientific nonsense factor..)
There you have it; this is why God does not reveal Himself to us directly. If He did, we would all die. It’s for our own good that He didn’t reveal Himself directly.
Well then (God, this is so obvious, and your reasoning so denialist and evasive...) He can send us His son, again, (or an angel, or my now-deceased brother, father and mother, even for 10 minutes, to tell us what it's like in heaven [or, more likely in my brother's case, what it's like in hell...], and by golly, we'd be convinced for sure!
But with just as long as He/they/it brings along one or two or three good old miracles to show us. BTW, God should, in His ability to simultaneously control each and every sub-atomic particle in the entire universe, just come on down without harming us!
You are obviously really stuck on this inescapable point of contention, aren't you? Admit it! (And... with reasoning like yours, it must be difficult to continue to accept your own man-designed and ego-centric belief system!)
What profligate silliness!
True "Beliefs of Speculation and Convenience", coupled with the "OH MY GOD! I'm JUST SO Awestruck by His Holy Magnificence!" argument.
As for that other painfully silly argument, that if anything in our entire universe were even slightly differnent, we would or could not be here!
Well then Holy Bully Pulpit ! Yup! For sure w, in our current Evolved form, would for sure not be here then! Bingo ! Folks who try this one end up proving it all to yourselves, right out of the cereal box it came in!
We Evolved into the exactly well-adapted organistic format you see today via the various intermediate & transitional(dare I whisper: Missing Linkk...???) forms we have found remnants and fossils of, all nicely and accurately dated to be at least millions of years old, and in the geological columns where we not only can date them relatively, but also exactly time-wise where we'd PREDICT them to be, but decidedly different in their layout and functionality than our current form exhibits.
After all, we humans not longer have to deal with normal and natural Evolutionary and ecological pressures like temperatures, climate varaibles, food suppy and the like! We inventive and creative hominids just modify our environments (Gore-Tex™, down parkas, bikinis, Air Conditioning, bacvteiral air cleaning, and so on...) to remove such pressures, so the only ways we might still benefit from natural Evolutionary selection would be in the area of Intellect improvements. (God I hope so!)
In other areas, such as disease resistance, etc., we're obviously falling by the wayside, but this gives modern Med-Sci further chances to modify our responses, and now, to even tinker with our DNA!
Designer Humans anyone? Scientists as Godly Beings?
Don't worry: it's all coming to a high school lab near you! And soon!
There you have it; this is why God does not reveal Himself to us directly. If He did, we would all die. It’s for our own good that He didn’t reveal Himself directly.
Much simpler than that, for gods (all of them) don't reveal themselves for they are simply the delusion of man, and do not exist beyond the delusion of those so afflicted.
Much simpler than that, for gods (all of them) don't reveal themselves for they are simply the delusion of man, and do not exist beyond the delusion of those so afflicted.
Can you prove that all delusions, are not realities?
I’ve always heard people ask this question of the christian God. If God is real, why doesn’t He come and show Himself to us, and speak for Himself, versus having His “prophets” speak for Him? I like to answer this question by giving what I am now calling the “Star Argument”.
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And I shall call it:
"just the latest of made up excuses in apologetics weekly"
What I loathe about the pro science is that they think these scientists MADE the universe!!! FYI, ALL OF WHAT SCIENCE HAS SPOUTED WERE ALL DISCOVERIES!!!!
They just found out HOW the universe works and suddenly they are the be all and end all
What I loathe about the pro science is that they think these scientists MADE the universe!!! FYI, ALL OF WHAT SCIENCE HAS SPOUTED WERE ALL DISCOVERIES!!!!
They just found out HOW the universe works and suddenly they are the be all and end all
Go scratch atheists like siriusly!
Yeah! And if God had meant us to fly, we'd have wings and not have to rely on these sciencers and enganirs for newfangled devilish contrapshuns like fur shir!
Why would your god tell them not to do something when he was fully aware that they would do it.? rather pointless don't you think?
Free will is free will. That means man decided what they will do, whether to be with God or not. So, God did not know what men would do, because it was men's choice to make. With that said, the only way you will understand what I'm saying is to change your mind about how the future works. The future is not set when it comes to our choices. Whatever choice we make, the future of that choice will become the reality. God knows the end to all our choices, He knows the future of them all.(By this I mean whatever choice you make or don't make, God knows the future of both of them. The choice you make, will be the future that becomes reality.) Yet the choice itself, is all ours to make. You decide which future happens.
So get it out of your mind that before we existed, our choices were somehow set to disobey. The Bible clearly speaks that had God known what we "would" do, He would have not created us.
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Originally Posted by NightBazaar
But if God is all knowing, then he knew he would create humans and give them the choice which includes making the wrong choice, which in turn means the humans would not be perfect, and he would have known they would indeed make the wrong choice. If you're going to separate free will and the outcome of free will because God didn't know since people didn't exist before they were created, then you're pretty much limiting God's ability, which suggests God is not all knowing and leaves things all to chance. If God didn't know beforehand, then you're implying that he is also imperfect.
After all, the text says, "Let us make man in our image." Either God's image is that of perfection and all knowing, or he is imperfect because, as you said, he didn't know beforehand. How do you know that? That doesn't make much sense, considering He seems able to determine future events. If you're going to set the standard of ultimate perfection to your scenario, then you can't have it both ways. What boils down to is that you're saying you think you know what God knows. But the Bible says, "Who can know the mind of God?" In other words, you can't know because of Adam's fall from perfection.
Wrong, He didn't know because there was nothing to know. Get it out of your head that the future is somehow set, that all of our choices that we make, were predestined to happen. That is not true, in fact, it is impossible and illogical. What if God decided not to create us? Let's say I never existed at all. Yet because (for instance) this conversation on this forum was predestined, even if I never existed, I would still be having this conversation with you. So no, our choices are not pre-set.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
You need to get up to speed on your Bible I think. Clearly, according to your god's 'infallible word' he knew everything about you even before you were born. He planned your whole life out for you before you were even born.
"You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed."
Psalm 139:16
Presumably he knew all about A+E before they were created too...and that is where the 'free-will' argument falls flat. How can one have free-will if one's whole live is laid out and planned before birth. How does one make a 'free-will' decision to do other than what your god has planned for you.
Of course, God's plan for our lives are laid out. Yet, do we have to accept God's plan for our lives? According to free will, no, we don't have to follow God's plan. Now read Isaiah 46:10.....
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
You see, God declares the end, "from the beginning". If there is no beginning (IE what man decided to do in the Garden), there would be no future to determine. In other words, if man was never created, the choice of obedience or disobedience is not made, and thus there is no future to determine. Read in Genesis 6 how God regretted created man, because man "chose" to not return to Him, even after seeing the suffering sin has brought. If He known what men "would" do, He would have not created us. Yet that is not a slight on His omniscience, because I've shown how there was nothing to know before our existence.
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Your entire life since the day you were born, where you were born, determined all the choices you have ever made. Granted no one held a gun to your head so you think the choice you made was free.
Take a simple thing like a KFC special where you get a "free" soda. They have say Coke and Sprite but you really want say a Fanta grape. (these are all Coke brands so you should have them in the US) Your choice is limited to what they have on offer at that time. You cannot will your preference. You could of course go to another outlet but then that decision was determined by the fact you could not get your preference at KFC1.
All we have is an illusion of free will, it does not exist.
The point actually is having free choice from what you are given. For example, God gave us the freedom to be with Him or go and try to make our own way. Adam chose the latter. So that is what I mean by free will.
I'm not saying we have the free will, that if we wanted to jump and fly through the air, we can do so. Yet given the circumstances, you have the freedom to choose how to deal with it, what route you want to take solving the circumstance, etc. When it comes to where we want to spend eternity, we can choose to be with God or not. That is the choice we have to make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Yeah I know the spin, but we are supposed to take it literally until it hits a point of illogic, then the goalposts are moved.
The alleged fall, god still went looking for Adam, he still spoke with Abel and Cain so your argument of separation fails.
You cannot apply logic to your bible, it does not stand up to scrutiny. It is mythical folklore.
The very fact that we died, shows we were seperated from God. When Adam died, he didn't go to Heaven, he actually went to a seperate compartment in Hell, waiting for Jesus to come and redeem him. So Adam was in fact seperated from God the moment he ate. Today, Adam is in Heaven, because of Jesus. Adam is now reconciled to God.
So everything adds up. God speaking to Adam and his children afterward, is simply His grace on us. We didn't deserve any kind of relationship, but He gave it to us because of His love for us. Already telling Adam and Eve that Jesus would crush the seed of the serpent from the moment of their sin.
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], and by golly, we'd be convinced for sure!
