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How badly can you misunderstand or interpret a comment?
I did not suggest there were no other examples or sources of friction that history ties more directly to religion. Of course there have been all kinds of reasons people have been persecuted, but if anyone is "displaying an inadequate reading of history," clearly it is you, because you seem to be suggesting there are not many examples of religion playing a part as well. Not sure how it matters that "missionaries came much later" either. What matters more specifically with regard to missionaries are all the stories about missionaries you don't want to consider. How very fair and objective minded of you as usual...
Your problem is your narrow immersion in Christianity and the western world as a basis for everything you hold opinions about. The Spanish, the most cruelest of all, never came to the East. The Portuguese who came to one small part of India did do a lot of damage. The rest of the Indian sub continent was “missionarized” by Irish Catholics.
Just because I say more damage and atrocities to humanity was committed out of base human greed, and continue to be so, does not mean Christian inquisitions and its spread by force did not take place. But a much larger areas and percentage of humanity suffered due to colonization. You are ignoring, or ignorant of, that part in order to to force your position about religious intolerance and conversion. The damage done with bombs and chemical weapons by the west is immeasurable. And we continue to do it because there is —— load of money to be made with war, more so than religion. That is the ugly truth.
I don't know that is ridiculous about my reply. Judaism is not a religion of conflict, nor does it seek to impose itself upon anyone, unlike some other religions. That was the only context in which I was discussing it. If you choose to bring political issues regarding Israel to the table, you'll need to take them to the P&OC Forum.
Exactly why I didn't bother to elaborate then and won't now either, but the comment is ridiculous from the standpoint of suggesting that Judaism has not be a part of many a conflict that has involved the death of a great many people. A matter often discussed in the P&OC forum, but of course the folks commenting there are no more fair and objective minded than here.
Why I started this thread there some time ago...
Confirmation bias: the number 1 problem in America
I don't know that is ridiculous about my reply. Judaism is not a religion of conflict, nor does it seek to impose itself upon anyone, unlike some other religions. That was the only context in which I was discussing it. If you choose to bring political issues regarding Israel to the table, you'll need to take them to the P&OC Forum.
I think you make it sound too simple. After all, in it's founding documents it described itself as a "Jewish state". So I'm not sure you can separate what the state does from its status as a "Jewish state".
And it isn't just Israel. Thailand does not have an official religion, but it may as well. There is hardly a political/military event that doesn't include monks blessing soldiers, blessing armaments, etc. So how then do you totally separate Thailand's Buddhism from Thailand's government?
Your problem is your narrow immersion in Christianity and the western world as a basis for everything you hold opinions about. The Spanish, the most cruelest of all, never came to the East. The Portuguese who came to one small part of India did do a lot of damage. The rest of the Indian sub continent was “missionarized” by Irish Catholics.
Just because I say more damage and atrocities to humanity was committed out of base human greed, and continue to be so, does not mean Christian inquisitions and its spread by force did not take place. But a much larger areas and percentage of humanity suffered due to colonization. You are ignoring, or ignorant of, that part in order to to force your position about religious intolerance and conversion. The damage done with bombs and chemical weapons by the west is immeasurable. And we continue to do it because there is —— load of money to be made with war, more so than religion. That is the ugly truth.
I'm good with the simple recognition there is plenty "good, bad and ugly" to observe about all the above, and I don't think it productive to try and quantify the "damage" across the board. We waste enough time here as it is, but the insults get a little old. Perhaps we can tone those down too if possible.
I think you make it sound too simple. After all, in it's founding documents it described itself as a "Jewish state". So I'm not sure you can separate what the state does from its status as a "Jewish state".
And it isn't just Israel. Thailand does not have an official religion, but it may as well. There is hardly a political/military event that doesn't include monks blessing soldiers, blessing armaments, etc. So how then do you totally separate Thailand's Buddhism from Thailand's government?
The Pew Research Center has identified Israel as one of the countries that place "high restrictions" on the free exercise of religion and there have been limits placed on non-Orthodox Jewish movements, which are unrecognized. Pew ranked Israel as fifth globally in terms of "inter-religious tension and violence".
No human is perfect and no collection or organization of humans will be perfect...whether that be a country or business or religion, etc...
So you can find faults with any human or collection of humans. I'd argue that Jesus has been a blessing for humanity and Christianity net positive.
You want a "macro" view....big dictionary word there smarty pants , the Society of Friends has pushed for abolition of slavery well before it was mainstream, advocated women's rights well before it was mainstream, civil rights for all of God's children well before it was mainstream, pacifism, non-violence, no aggression, and anti-war positions, charity, service to all, and support of free will for individuals etc. I am obviously a biased flawed human on this topic, but I think that is a net positive. Yes, people in that collective group, as all humans do, have done some horrible things, but it is net positive.
And it is personal as you say, because I do love Jesus so deeply, but I don't take any offense to you questioning. Questioning isn't a bad thing. Discussion isn't a bad thing if done civilly. We should welcome good human interactions.
I'm good with all the good we can and should recognize as well! Just a bit of a problem that too many people seem inclined to ignore or dismiss the bad. Especially when they are just not aware...
Read up can mean just about anything, because whatever one person wants to read (or not read) will cause that person to have a different handle on the facts which I think are the particulars Phet was asking for...
That said, it is a good idea to read up in order to be better informed, fair and objective about any subject as complex as this one.
"The relationship between Spanish colonization and the Catholicization of the Americas is inextricable. The conversion of the region was viewed as crucial for colonization. The missions created by members of Catholic orders were often located on the outermost borders of the colonies. The missions facilitated the expansion of the Spanish empire through the religious conversion of the indigenous peoples occupying those areas. While the Spanish crown dominated the political, economic, and social realms of the Americas and people indigenous to the region, the Catholic Church dominated the religious and spiritual realm." Wikipedia
Pick your story...
Again Christianity and the western world seems to be the only lense you have to view the world with. You are so unaware of how narrow and poverty of a vision that is.
Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and many other branches of Hinduism exist in India. None of them have had forcible conversion, or supressed. Often these were founded by individuals, just like Siddhartha, in resistance to the Brahmanical hegemony and orthodoxy of Hinduism. They all thrive. This is because Eastern thought insists on the validity of different paths that all lead to the same divinity. This is not just lip service, it is a premise that is asserted in million different ways in texts, legends, literature and epics and sacred texts such as the Bhaghavat Gita, and in all Indian languages. Coercion and conversion is not necessary. There are no missionaries other than Christian.
So that is the lesson for you and Phet for today.
Again Christianity and the western world seems to be the only lense you have to view the world with. You are so unaware of how narrow and poverty of a vision that is.
Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and many other branches of Hinduism exist in India. None of them have had forcible conversion, or supressed. Often these were founded by individuals, just like Siddhartha, in resistance to the Brahmanical hegemony and orthodoxy of Hinduism. They all thrive. This is because Eastern thought insists on the validity of different paths that all lead to the same divinity. This is not just lip service, it is a premise that is asserted in million different ways in texts, legends, literature and epics and sacred texts such as the Bhaghavat Gita, and in all Indian languages. Coercion and conversion is not necessary. There are no missionaries other than Christian.
So that is the lesson for you and Phet for today.
No, Theravada Buddhism does not lead to the same divinity. Stop forcing your intrusive religion on other religions.
Again Christianity and the western world seems to be the only lense you have to view the world with. You are so unaware of how narrow and poverty of a vision that is.
He is short sighted because he is responding to your very specific post?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and many other branches of Hinduism exist in India. None of them have had forcible conversion, or supressed. Often these were founded by individuals, just like Siddhartha, in resistance to the Brahmanical hegemony and orthodoxy of Hinduism. They all thrive. This is because Eastern thought insists on the validity of different paths that all lead to the same divinity.
The Pew Research Center has identified Israel as one of the countries that place "high restrictions" on the free exercise of religion and there have been limits placed on non-Orthodox Jewish movements, which are unrecognized. Pew ranked Israel as fifth globally in terms of "inter-religious tension and violence".
Well, since Israel as of May 2022 has a 21% Arab population of any religion other than Jewish, that's entirely possible, seeing as their interests may conflict with those of the Jewish state.
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, the Society of Friends has pushed for abolition of slavery well before it was mainstream, advocated women's rights well before it was mainstream, civil rights for all of God's children well before it was mainstream, pacifism, non-violence, no aggression, and anti-war positions, charity, service to all, and support of free will for individuals etc. I am obviously a biased flawed human on this topic, but I think that is a net positive. Yes, people in that collective group, as all humans do, have done some horrible things, but it is net positive.