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You seem to be assuming that what feels best is simply an emotional feeling based upon personal likes or a warm fuzzy feeling.Sometimes what the heart dictates to be best is very painful.
I assume no such things. If you want to update and re-write the text in question to modernize it to reflect current language usage then by all means do so. I rather expect you will be killed for it however but that is your risk to take. I however am taking the OP on face value and reading it in the language it is written as I speak it.
The language in the OP, despite your attempts to re-write it, very clearly, simply and concisely says that "sin" is what you feel uneasy about. I am merely pointing out that this is horrifically bad advice to be throwing around, especially to people who are not about to research the possible ancient etymological interpretations of what he might have meant many 100s of years ago. Quiet often the right thing to do is something we very much feel wrong or uneasy about. Both while doing it and after doing it. Despite it being the right thing one may sometimes never feel right about it. Ever. Again I gave examples, try reading them. So I reject as wrong your assertion that "right" is in any way connected with, as you put it, an "overall" good feeling. Sometimes the right thing leaves you with nothing but bad feelings.
Take one of our resident theist preachers on this forum Vansdad for example. Looking through his post history to find a quote recently I spotted him on another part of the forum saying that despite all the scientific studies to the contrary a certain method of toddler sleep training is wrong... for no other reason that it makes him feel uneasy and stressed. So wrong did he think it was in the light of this that he wantonly and willingly called all parents engaging in such methods some egregiously awful things. From selfish, to uncaring, as if they employed that method merely for their own convenience, with no love for the child at all, and they only believed the multitude of science studies because it allowed them to justify their own evil actions to themselves.
All based on nothing more than him feeling uneasy about the method in question. A position clearly supported by the nonsense advice presented in the OP and attributed to someone who I have no reason to think was all that qualified to speak on the issue or any other issue related to Human Behavior or ethics.
In short I think it is awful advice, in dire need of updating, and you appear to be trying to justify it solely by re-writing it and adding your own caveats and interpretations to it. Having done so you have diluted it down into nothing more than saying "Do what you evaluate as being the right thing to do, and do not do the rest" which is not advice at all but a statement of the obvious.
Last edited by Nozzferrahhtoo; 10-09-2012 at 08:50 AM..
Not to my knowledge. It is a discussion forum. This is a discussion. I am merely taking part. Let us stick to the posts and not the posters here. Personal questions about me will not be answered, nor are they useful because many people here merely make up the answers to suit their own arguments.
To stick to the actual points rather than making this about me, I just feel that creating an empty and near meaningless one size fits all mantra for such things is not helpful. In fact it can be the opposite. Woodrow for example tries to tell us that when you do the right thing what Mo meant was you get an "overall" feeling of good or right. I can tell you now this is not so.
The example I gave already was people who report an abusive parent to child services and the child is taken away. I can tell you people who do that quite often do not feel good at all, let alone an "overall" feeling of good. They feel bad because of the "anti snitch" mentality pervasive in society. They feel bad because the situation of a child being taken from it's parents it a terrible one causing much pain to many people. They feel bad because they see that pain and feel like they caused it.
Does any of that change the fact that what they did very much was the right thing? Not at all. No matter how bad they feel about it, reporting an abused child to child protection is the right thing to do.
That is one example. I could bore you with many more. Our moral intuition can often leave us feeling bad about the right decisions and good about the wrong ones. That is why the nonsense in the OP is bad advice and Woodrow's diluted re-writing of it says nearly nothing at all. Woodrow's dilute version says nothing more than "If you evaluate something as the right thing to do, then do it, otherwise do not" which is not advice at all. It is just stating the obvious.
I assume no such things. If you want to update and re-write the text in question to modernize it to reflect current language usage then by all means do so. I rather expect you will be killed for it however but that is your risk to take. I however am taking the OP on face value and reading it in the language it is written as I speak it.
The language in the OP, despite your attempts to re-write it, very clearly, simply and concisely says that "sin" is what you feel uneasy about. I am merely pointing out that this is horrifically bad advice to be throwing around, especially to people who are not about to research the possible ancient etymological interpretations of what he might have meant many 100s of years ago. Quiet often the right thing to do is something we very much feel wrong or uneasy about. Both while doing it and after doing it. Despite it being the right thing one may sometimes never feel right about it. Ever. Again I gave examples, try reading them. So I reject as wrong your assertion that "right" is in any way connected with, as you put it, an "overall" good feeling. Sometimes the right thing leaves you with nothing but bad feelings.
Take one of our resident theist preachers on this forum Vansdad for example. Looking through his post history to find a quote recently I spotted him on another part of the forum saying that despite all the scientific studies to the contrary a certain method of toddler sleep training is wrong... for no other reason that it makes him feel uneasy and stressed. So wrong did he think it was in the light of this that he wantonly and willingly called all parents engaging in such methods some egregiously awful things. From selfish, to uncaring, as if they employed that method merely for their own convenience, with no love for the child at all, and they only believed the multitude of science studies because it allowed them to justify their own evil actions to themselves.
All based on nothing more than him feeling uneasy about the method in question. A position clearly supported by the nonsense advice presented in the OP and attributed to someone who I have no reason to think was all that qualified to speak on the issue or any other issue related to Human Behavior or ethics.
In short I think it is awful advice, in dire need of updating, and you appear to be trying to justify it solely by re-writing it and adding your own caveats and interpretations to it.
Like most Muslim I call it as I understand it.
To the Arabic Mind set Heart does denote reasoning and not so much as emotion. especially to the Ancient Arabs. Even today in an Arab nation you will find people referring to the heart as the center of reason and the head as the center of emotions. A common compliment is to say "You are a good head" it does not mean the person is intelligent, it means the person is compassionate.
But going back to the Hadith quoted in the OP it is specific as a guide for reading the Qur'an. In which we are not to base our understanding on Fatwas. (Opinions of Qur'anic verses) but to let our reason and feelings guide us. Islam is basically self learned. there is no central institutionalized method of teaching it. In a typical Muslim home the first teacher is the Mother and from there the next step will usually be the Imam of the local mosque who is often the oldest member of the community.
This is in no way limited to Muslims. Reading vague and generally empty text and interpreting it in a way that best suits your own intuitions and positions is quite common throughout the world. Muslim, Christian and many more.
Watching someone like yourself read a tiny piece of text in the OP then proceed to tell people it says all kinds of things it does not... just because you come from the starting point it must be correct and wise... is something I have seen more times than I can even guess a number at.
If you want to read the line "sin is that which you feel uneasy about" and pretend it says anything but what is actually written there then that is great for you. Do not expect anyone else to buy what you are shoveling however.
If you want to dilute that sentence down with your re-writing and caveats to a point where it actually says nothing at all... which is exactly what you just did.... then so be that too.
I repeat my own advice. When confronted with a moral conundrum of any kind then do not simply go with what feels good or avoid what makes you feel uneasy. Instead being your entire wisdom and education to bear on the problem, couple it with your own moral and emotional intuitions. Feed the results of that into the wisdom and advice of others.... the out put of of which you should feed back into yourself as you originally did. And where possible include and evaluate all data and reason related to the problem and all precedent you can find related to it too.
In other words treat each problem as the individual problem it actually is and engage your entire mind and heart in solving it. Ignore throw away catch all mantras people throw at you to simply the process.
In other words treat each problem as the individual problem it actually is and engage your entire mind and heart in solving it. Ignore throw away catch all mantras people throw at you to simply the process.
Which is how I understand this to mean.
Righteousness is that with which the heart feels at ease,
and sin is that which you feel uneasy about,
even if the people give you fatwa after fatwa
(Consult your heart, no matter how many people give you fatwas and advice).
You may want to see how sin is defined by Muslims
Quote:
Righteousness is good morality and sin is that which causes discomfort (or pinches) within your soul and which you dislike people to become informed of.” [Sahih Muslim]
You can understand it that way all you like. That does not mean that is what it said. Nowhere in what is written in that quote is there anything similar to what I said. You are just imagining it there, and adding text and caveats that simply are not in the original. The theistic ability to fit their holy scripture to their own positions by seeing things in the text that are just not there.
Again it does not matter how uneasy you feel about something, for example. It could still be the "right" thing to do and I gave examples which you have consistently wantonly ignored because they do not fit your tosh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller
the guilty used to laugh at those who believed
What do you mean USED to? Many beliefs today, such as creationism, still are ludicrously funny and the fuel for much humour.
You can understand it that way all you like. That does not mean that is what it said. Nowhere in what is written in that quote is there anything similar to what I said. You are just imagining it there, and adding text and caveats that simply are not in the original. The theistic ability to fit their holy scripture to their own positions by seeing things in the text that are just not there.
Again it does not matter how uneasy you feel about something, for example. It could still be the "right" thing to do and I gave examples which you have consistently wantonly ignored because they do not fit your tosh.
What do you mean USED to? Many beliefs today, such as creationism, still are ludicrously funny and the fuel for much humour.
Sorry I still see the phrase as used by Muhammad to be virtually the same as yours. Most of the choices we have to make in life are not to our liking and are Painful for us to do. but, we feel good knowing we have done the right thing.
I do not see it as any type of doing something for self gratification nor do I see sin as defined by a law. It is simply avoiding doing what is the right thing to do.
Perhaps I am alone in my views, but I sincerely believe them and will stick to them until I find proof to make me think different. And I understand what Muhammad said to be essentially the same thing you are saying.
Sorry I still see the phrase as used by Muhammad to be virtually the same as yours.
So you keep saying. But you seeing it that way does not magically make it so. What you have been saying is complete tosh in fact. For example when you said " the overall feeling you have is one of good, even if it was painful to do" this is often complete nonsense and I gave examples which you are STILL ignoring of when this is so. Yet you ignore those examples so you can keep trotting out this nonsense mantra...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Most of the choices we have to make in life are not to our liking and are Painful for us to do. but, we feel good knowing we have done the right thing.
... despite, as I pointed out, the many possible cases where we did the right thing and do not feel good AT ALL. Ignore the examples though. Do not let them get in the way of your world view whatever you do.
So you keep saying. But you seeing it that way does not magically make it so. What you have been saying is complete tosh in fact. For example when you said " the overall feeling you have is one of good, even if it was painful to do" this is often complete nonsense and I gave examples which you are STILL ignoring of when this is so. Yet you ignore those examples so you can keep trotting out this nonsense mantra...
... despite, as I pointed out, the many possible cases where we did the right thing and do not feel good AT ALL. Ignore the examples though. Do not let them get in the way of your world view whatever you do.
Sorry to hear you do not always feel good when you know you have done the right thing. For myself I find that no matter how hard and painful it is to do the right thing, I always feel good knowing I have done what is right, no matter how much it hurt me to do it.
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