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This man suffered severe brain damage yet returned to work within days and made a complete recovery..
Yes. That was quite a recovery. But, why did it happen in the first place? I would think a better "miracle" would be if someone never got sick or had these problems throughout their lives, or if he had gotten off the ground and walked to the hospital. As was pointed out, there are no pictures his brain after his recovery to confirm that the damage was "healed". The doctors simply had no explanation. These types of recoveries occur periodically, not commonly mind you, but they do happen. I would suggest that maybe his wife should go to the local Children's Hospital and "speak the Word" over all of those children who are suffering with cancer, who have little chance of seeing adulthood. Maybe they would be beneficiaries of her Words' healing powers.
BTW, Jesus never reiterated the Ten Commandments, so they are indeed null and void by your explanation.
Here are some highlights first of all and I am sure you will be VERY familiar with some of this along with the language.
- Grew up in a "Christian home" for the first 9 years of my life.
- Grew up in a rural home (without electricity) in the Caribbean where my grandmother's battery powered radio stayed on a Gospel station 24 hours a day. Radio programming included ministers like RW Schaumbach (a self-professed healer), Oral Roberts, Billy Graham and other fundamentalist preachers.
- Began reading the Bible as early as age 5
- Became a Christian at age 14 in a HOLINESS/Revivalist Trinatrian church that believed in the doctrine of faith, salvation in Jesus alone, his death and LITERAL resurrection, his power to heal and his second coming. There was also the held belief of the baptism of the holy ghost, sanctification and an active, vibrant, robust living of the Christian life.
- Read through the Bible for the first time at age 16.
- Won EVERY bible contest game I participated in during my teens.
- By 17, was able to recite entire bible chapters.
- Moved to NY at age 17 and remained in a Holiness-Pentecostal type church that EMPHASIZED an active and dynamic display of the Christian experience.
- Read through the Bible again by age 19 and again at 21 and 26.
- Collected apologetic books from men like Strobel, McDowell, Morris, MacArthur, etc.
- Move on to attend the world-renowned Brooklyn Tabernacle Church, joining their choir.
- Participated in hospital and prison ministries.
- Moved to South Florida and began attending the nationally known Calvary Chapel under Bob Coy.
- Was a dedicated listener to Moody Radio, fan of Ravi Zechariah and Dallas Theological Seminary alums.
- Missed probably a total of 5 Sunday services over a 17 year span.
- Believed in and lived my Christian life with the utmost sincerity and ambition.
So, what was this about a spiritually dead church and not getting the full story here? You certainly have the wrong one to attempt to "analyze."
Still not the full story if you experienced all that and never onced experienced God's clear voice and direction or anything supernatural. Did you even witness anyone getting saved and seeing how they immediately become a new creation with a new personality? That's amazing enough for me, and you can't tell me it isn't a positive experience.
Still not the full story if you experienced all that and never onced experienced God's clear voice and direction or anything supernatural. Did you even witness anyone getting saved and seeing how they immediately become a new creation with a new personality? That's amazing enough for me, and you can't tell me it isn't a positive experience.
Sir, I "heard" voices many time, just like everybody else. Others call it intuition, an "inner voice" or an inclination. I USED TO chose to call it "god." Heck, just the other day, "a mind" told me to cross the street in the middle of the road instead of the at the crosswalk and I found $50. In the past, I would have said that was "god." Conversely, "a mind" has told me to go one route or do something different and I ended up in a mess. Of course, in the past, I never called that "god." My point is, EVERY human hears their inner voice from time to time. You call it "god" others might not label it as such, thus it being a subjective matter. Just because a decision works out great does NOT mean it is some deity guiding your brain.
As for this "getting saved" business. Of course I saw people walking up to an altar and claiming Jesus saved their souls. Folks have similar "testimonies" of "deliverance" and AA meetings and other such self help, support meetings be it weight loss or drug dependency. Yes, they are ALL positive experiences if it leads to productive lives and productive living. I do NOT have to label the experiences as "god did it" and such claims do NOT, by ANY stretch, have to assume a god unless one chooses to do so and that is not evidence.
Still not the full story if you experienced all that and never onced experienced God's clear voice and direction or anything supernatural. Did you even witness anyone getting saved and seeing how they immediately become a new creation with a new personality? That's amazing enough for me, and you can't tell me it isn't a positive experience.
It is worth pointing out the difference however between something having an effect (positive or negative) and something actually being true. The beef of many atheists is that the claims of religion are simply unsubstantiated nonsense. Even if you were correct (and I have my doubts but that is another conversation) that belief in god has positive and useful effects... that does not for one instant substantiate the claims of any religion.
Unfortunately this is presented time and time again on these fora as if it IS evidence that god exists. The trans-formative effects of god belief are cited repeatedly in conversations on the actual existence of god.
It is worth pointing out the difference however between something having an effect (positive or negative) and something actually being true. The beef of many atheists is that the claims of religion are simply unsubstantiated nonsense. Even if you were correct (and I have my doubts but that is another conversation) that belief in god has positive and useful effects... that does not for one instant substantiate the claims of any religion.
Unfortunately this is presented time and time again on these fora as if it IS evidence that god exists. The trans-formative effects of god belief are cited repeatedly in conversations on the actual existence of god.
And you refuse to tell me the accepted parameters for evidence because you need the ability to always reject anything that supports Christianity.
Sir, I "heard" voices many time, just like everybody else. Others call it intuition, an "inner voice" or an inclination. I USED TO chose to call it "god." Heck, just the other day, "a mind" told me to cross the street in the middle of the road instead of the at the crosswalk and I found $50. In the past, I would have said that was "god." Conversely, "a mind" has told me to go one route or do something different and I ended up in a mess. Of course, in the past, I never called that "god." My point is, EVERY human hears their inner voice from time to time. You call it "god" others might not label it as such, thus it being a subjective matter. Just because a decision works out great does NOT mean it is some deity guiding your brain.
As for this "getting saved" business. Of course I saw people walking up to an altar and claiming Jesus saved their souls. Folks have similar "testimonies" of "deliverance" and AA meetings and other such self help, support meetings be it weight loss or drug dependency. Yes, they are ALL positive experiences if it leads to productive lives and productive living. I do NOT have to label the experiences as "god did it" and such claims do NOT, by ANY stretch, have to assume a god unless one chooses to do so and that is not evidence.
Well it's sad that Satan has influenced and blinded you to this degree. I can't judge your heart or say that you were never saved. Only God can. I suspect most ex-Christians path to atheists is rooted in negative experiences that born anger towards God then doubt takes root. This explains why they demonstrate disrespect and hostility to Christians. As far as I know, science has no explanation for the "inner voice" either.
If you spent 17 years deep in the faith and never witnessed anything supernatural then some piece of the puzzle is missing, IMO. I can always draw from my own supernatural experiences and the experiences of my family and friends if I ever start to have doubts.
And you refuse to tell me the accepted parameters for evidence because you need the ability to always reject anything that supports Christianity.
I gave you a parameter. My parameter is that I will consider with an open mind any argument, data, evidence or reasoning YOU provide me to support your claims. You have not provided _any_ however so I have been unable to follow through on that promise.
However this reply does not address what I just said at all. You replied to my post but did not address what was in it. The point of my post was to highlight the vast difference between "Believing X makes people feel better" and "X is actually true".
I just think that is a useful distinction to highlight.
I gave you a parameter. My parameter is that I will consider with an open mind any argument, data, evidence or reasoning YOU provide me to support your claims. You have not provided _any_ however so I have been unable to follow through on that promise.
However this reply does not address what I just said at all. You replied to my post but did not address what was in it. The point of my post was to highlight the vast difference between "Believing X makes people feel better" and "X is actually true".
I just think that is a useful distinction to highlight.
Moderator cut: deleted I asked for a parameter to measure "evidence" not another one of your blanket " I am open minded" comments. You keep demanding evidence and won't even tell me what kind of evidence you would accept without question.
You keep demanding evidence and won't even tell me what kind of evidence you would accept without question.
I don't want to speak for Nozz, but this is part of the issue I have with this whole line of thinking. There is no kind of evidence that should ever be accepted without question. Period. Evidence must always be evaluated and interpreted, it is just data.
Rather than having a discussion on the evidence you do have, you seem to be looking for some point that you can use to rhetorically nail him to the wall. Discussion with skeptics, relating to any position, is a very useful thing. They help you understand the limits of your own position, what things you take on faith, and what things you have evidential support for. Chances are you will not convince Nozz, not myself, but the point is not to win. Internet arguments are unwinnable. The point is to clarify your own position, and understand that of the other.
-NoCapo
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