Another Biblical error (disciples, America, mythology, church)
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OK Here is another one of those Questions that no theist or Christian has ever been able to explain.
Jesus supposedly said that he would return to earth and establish his kingdom. Many have been waiting for this "Any minute now" event.
But if we read what is said in the Bible, Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
Now we know that the writer of Matthew borrows heavily from Mark's gospel, we see in Mark “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30)
And later again in Matthew And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 25-34)
Well, that is OK and fine BUT Consider this. When Matthew was written, some 100 years after these supposed conversations, it is safe to say that pretty much all of the disciples, followers and attendees to Jesus' lectures were probably dead. Matthew was written between 80 and 100 AD. SO here the writer says "Jesus says he is coming back " And yet, he never did. That generation did in fact pass away. And any similarities to the gospel of John, which was written even later, in a language that Jesus and his apostles probably never spoke as well, this sentiment of imminent return was mentioned as well. But it would seem that someone besides a 21st century non-theist would have noticed it sooner.
And by the time the Bible was canonized, which was as late as 419 years later, these writings are included and yet they remain fictional, prophesying an event which never happened as described. This is unlike the Old Testament prophecies, where for example someone supposedly prophesied something but it was not written down as such until well after it happened.
TO me, this simply further proves that the Bible is a piece of allegorical fiction. Jesus is not coming back, either because 1) the historical Jesus died some 2000 years ago, or 2) the fictional Jesus died some 2000 years ago. Either way, the dead , like the fictitious, do not return to life. My apologies to Bram Stoker and John Polidori.
If the fictitious Jesus returned, well, case closed. But, he never did.
SO early church writers wanted to keep the myth of "Oh he'll be back any minute now" alive and have, for hundreds of years, tried to interpret every natural and man made problem to "God's Imminent return."
But still, no magical event.
Interesting, because if the historic Jesus got this whole prophecy wrong, and it looks like he did, I guess he was not so all-knowing and perfect after all perhaps?
AS I said before, I do not believe for one minute the guy is ever returning.
I am free of the bondage of that thinking.
But I have posed this to Christians in the past, and besides everything from the look of sheer terror to the "Oh it does not say that" response, I have never ever gotten a valid response. Been called a "pig" and some nastier names by them, but never had one give me a good response.
IF the Bible is so true and literal as so many Christians claim it is, then why did the early church writers allow this and so many other errors to be included?
Now, again, just so that we are on the same page...... Some unknown Man writes a gospel in the year 100 BCE. It is canonized years later and it is included in scriptural canon today. It is called the "Gospel according to Matthew" It talks about events that took place around the years 28 to 30 BCE. So it is written some 70 years after the fact. In this book, the character of Jesus promises to return to his followers before they all pass away, before their generation ended. 70 years later, when the book ws written, Jesus still had no returned and 300 years later when the council of Carthage accepted the book of Matthew in the scriptural canon, Jesus still had not returned. 1983 years later, you are reading this post because you have either an interest in mythology, or because you have nothing else to do, and Jesus still has not returned.
But, according to the story, he was due back by the year 60 or so anyway, given generously, as the life expectancy was in the 20 to 30 year range anyway.
That is, IF Jesus ever made these great claims anyway.
Well, apart from the hostile responses I imagine that By Faith the logic would be that since what it says has not come to pass it must actually say something else, if only we could understand what it is.
If I were an apologist, I'd argue that passing through Jerusalem twice refers to some occurence still to happen before Jesus comes...we will know it when it comes to pass..
OK Here is another one of those Questions that no theist or Christian has ever been able to explain.
Jesus supposedly said that he would return to earth and establish his kingdom. Many have been waiting for this "Any minute now" event.
But if we read what is said in the Bible, Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
The excuse you will get is that it is referring to the 'Transfiguration'.
The excuse you will get is that it is referring to the 'Transfiguration'.
Yes - but that reading is a bit strained after the preceding passage about coming with his angels into glory and then paying back everyone...just they wait. And the reference to 'tasting death' suggests something that will occur before they die, not something that is going to happen a week later (Luke says eight days) though John implies that this all happened on the same day in the same place, although he doesn't actually have a transfiguration. That seems to have been an invention of the writer of the synoptic
original.
Yes - but that reading is a bit strained after the preceding passage about coming with his angels into glory and then paying back everyone...just they wait.
I know that. I'm just saying that it will be one of the excuses used for why the Christian man-god didn't come back before those that he was speaking to popped their clogs.
The Son of Man came in Jerusalem all the day of Pentecost , from the Book of Acts 2 from the bible , which Jesus Came and brought His Holy Spirit, and anointed the followers with His Spirit ............. As also the authority of Lord Jesus is a finished work , where Now Lord Jesus Christ is the governor of the earth Heaven and life and all death ..............And all this happened which the disciple of Jesus were still alive in the earth ............... See the parable of the fig leaf is the growth of sin , which blinds the eye of the customs of the people to tolerate the sin of the earth , is Just what many people did , as Jesus came in those days , Most people were Not prepared for the Messiah to come and when He can ignored the truth and denied Jesus as the fig leaves means sin, from Adam and Eve covered themselves up with fig leaves to hide their sin .............So apostasy came with Jesus visitation from the days before and after the cross and even after Pentecost came people denied Jesus and His coming by the sin of customs of their traditions of religions ..................Still Jesus will make a second coming which people will deny him and even Christians will not see Him in human form , but Jesus still need to claim the earth from the adversary spirit and remove the adversary spirit completely for renewal of the earth for the purpose of God .............. See there is No error in the scriptures , only in the interpretation even among believers ....
I know that. I'm just saying that it will be one of the excuses used for why the Christian man-god didn't come back before those that he was speaking to popped their clogs.
I know you know - and I was just doing a kneejerk querying of whether that could work. It does, but it is straining the sense a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
Biblical errors?
Gee, I have been on Christian Forums where entire lists were posted.
I think they were called 'contradictions'.
Yes, but I learned early on that one error that shows us that a particular section of Bible text cannot be taken as correct is worth a long lost of 'discrepancies and contradictions' which can just be shrugged off as human error, eyewitness variations or easily reconciled with a bit of study.
OK Here is another one of those Questions that no theist or Christian has ever been able to explain.
Jesus supposedly said that he would return to earth and establish his kingdom. Many have been waiting for this "Any minute now" event.
But if we read what is said in the Bible, Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
Now we know that the writer of Matthew borrows heavily from Mark's gospel, we see in Mark “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30)
And later again in Matthew And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 25-34)
Well, that is OK and fine BUT Consider this. When Matthew was written, some 100 years after these supposed conversations, it is safe to say that pretty much all of the disciples, followers and attendees to Jesus' lectures were probably dead. Matthew was written between 80 and 100 AD. SO here the writer says "Jesus says he is coming back " And yet, he never did. That generation did in fact pass away. And any similarities to the gospel of John, which was written even later, in a language that Jesus and his apostles probably never spoke as well, this sentiment of imminent return was mentioned as well. But it would seem that someone besides a 21st century non-theist would have noticed it sooner.
And by the time the Bible was canonized, which was as late as 419 years later, these writings are included and yet they remain fictional, prophesying an event which never happened as described. This is unlike the Old Testament prophecies, where for example someone supposedly prophesied something but it was not written down as such until well after it happened.
TO me, this simply further proves that the Bible is a piece of allegorical fiction. Jesus is not coming back, either because 1) the historical Jesus died some 2000 years ago, or 2) the fictional Jesus died some 2000 years ago. Either way, the dead , like the fictitious, do not return to life. My apologies to Bram Stoker and John Polidori.
If the fictitious Jesus returned, well, case closed. But, he never did.
SO early church writers wanted to keep the myth of "Oh he'll be back any minute now" alive and have, for hundreds of years, tried to interpret every natural and man made problem to "God's Imminent return."
But still, no magical event.
Interesting, because if the historic Jesus got this whole prophecy wrong, and it looks like he did, I guess he was not so all-knowing and perfect after all perhaps?
AS I said before, I do not believe for one minute the guy is ever returning.
I am free of the bondage of that thinking.
But I have posed this to Christians in the past, and besides everything from the look of sheer terror to the "Oh it does not say that" response, I have never ever gotten a valid response. Been called a "pig" and some nastier names by them, but never had one give me a good response.
IF the Bible is so true and literal as so many Christians claim it is, then why did the early church writers allow this and so many other errors to be included?
Now, again, just so that we are on the same page...... Some unknown Man writes a gospel in the year 100 BCE. It is canonized years later and it is included in scriptural canon today. It is called the "Gospel according to Matthew" It talks about events that took place around the years 28 to 30 BCE. So it is written some 70 years after the fact. In this book, the character of Jesus promises to return to his followers before they all pass away, before their generation ended. 70 years later, when the book ws written, Jesus still had no returned and 300 years later when the council of Carthage accepted the book of Matthew in the scriptural canon, Jesus still had not returned. 1983 years later, you are reading this post because you have either an interest in mythology, or because you have nothing else to do, and Jesus still has not returned.
But, according to the story, he was due back by the year 60 or so anyway, given generously, as the life expectancy was in the 20 to 30 year range anyway.
That is, IF Jesus ever made these great claims anyway.
Jesus also said that the Gospel would be preached all throughout the world before His return. As we know, the disciples didn't touch the New World on the other side of the atlantic in their day. If Jesus came back when they were alive, His prophesy would have been false, because North and South America wouldn't have received the Gospel. Also, Jesus said we would know of earthquakes and other natural disasters in various places. This would have been impossible during the days of the disciples. (Sure they probably would have found out about an earthquake or two in different areas, but not to the degree Jesus was talking about) In today's world with the media, we hear about these things all the time. Just a month ago or so I heard about a terrible earthquake in China. So it was this generation Jesus was talking about, that wouldn't pass away until everything was fulfilled. (As Jesus says it was the generation who sees all these things)
Now, as for Jesus saying there would be those in that day who would not die until they see Him coming in the clouds, we bring up the Book of Revelation. One of the disciples, John, saw the last days in a vision. That is our explanation for Jesus' sayings there. By the way, I personally disagree with the dates you give the Book of Matthew on a couple of grounds.
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And the reference to 'tasting death' suggests something that will occur before they die, not something that is going to happen a week later (Luke says eight days) though John implies that this all happened on the same day in the same place, although he doesn't actually have a transfiguration. That seems to have been an invention of the writer of the synoptic
