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If the institution of marriage was ordained by God, then what constitutes a marriage?
Different cultures, religions, and legal systems have different definitions and ideas for what a marriage is. I would think that if you are religious, then you would view civil marriage and marriages conducted by people outside of your faith as purely human-made constructions. How, then, are these marriages any more valid to God's eyes than if two random people at a frat party were to declare "We pronounce each other husband and wife"?
If your God believes that having sex or children before outside of marriage is a sin or transgression, then what must two people do before they can have children without sinning / transgressing?
If the institution of marriage was ordained by God, then what constitutes a marriage?
Different cultures, religions, and legal systems have different definitions and ideas for what a marriage is. I would think that if you are religious, then you would view civil marriage and marriages conducted by people outside of your faith as purely human-made constructions. How, then, are these marriages any more valid to God's eyes than if two random people at a frat party were to declare "We pronounce each other husband and wife"?
If your God believes that having sex or children before outside of marriage is a sin or transgression, then what must two people do before they can have children without sinning / transgressing?
Yes. I believe that God honors the commitment of those people to each other.
If the institution of marriage was ordained by God, then what constitutes a marriage?
Different cultures, religions, and legal systems have different definitions and ideas for what a marriage is. I would think that if you are religious, then you would view civil marriage and marriages conducted by people outside of your faith as purely human-made constructions. How, then, are these marriages any more valid to God's eyes than if two random people at a frat party were to declare "We pronounce each other husband and wife"?
If your God believes that having sex or children before outside of marriage is a sin or transgression, then what must two people do before they can have children without sinning / transgressing?
The church generally defines marriage this way...
As ordained by God, marriage is a faithful, exclusive, lifelong union of a man and a woman joined in an intimate community of life and love. They commit themselves completely to each other, and to the wondrous responsibility of bringing children into the world when possible and caring for all their needs - spiritual, physical and emotional.
This is what is sometimes called a "covenantal marriage". The couple enters into marriage with the understanding that God is the 3rd member in the marriage.
All other marriages would be considered "civil marriages" which are of course "valid" because a couple is legally married, just not in a covenant with God.
Just try to get married at a church without a marriage license and see how far you get claiming to be a married couple. Without the state license it is meaningless. In fact without the state deciding to recognize clergy as officiants it would be meaningless, too. As far as I know, in all secular states, marriage is ordained by the state, not god or the church.
I can see a clergyman saying that god recognizes or "honors" the commitment of people who are married in civil ceremonies, as it would be in the church's rational self interest to hold people to their marriage vows regardless of whether holy water has been sprinkled on them. It's a control mechanism. It also simplifies things. And in practice, it would be quite the uphill battle to insist that everyone who joins your denomination get remarried within it. I'm sure that happens (it's probably technically semi-true of Catholicism for instance, if you really want to show your devotion to the Church) but it's basically a non-starter in my part of the world.
If the institution of marriage was ordained by God, then what constitutes a marriage?
Different cultures, religions, and legal systems have different definitions and ideas for what a marriage is. I would think that if you are religious, then you would view civil marriage and marriages conducted by people outside of your faith as purely human-made constructions. How, then, are these marriages any more valid to God's eyes than if two random people at a frat party were to declare "We pronounce each other husband and wife"?
If your God believes that having sex or children before outside of marriage is a sin or transgression, then what must two people do before they can have children without sinning / transgressing?
Don't worry about it. Think about it, does what you asked actually matter?. Live your life.
Yes. I believe that God honors the commitment of those people to each other.
Even if those two people do not believe in God? So before their little civil ceremony, if they had children they would be sinning, but after their ceremony, they would be OK? As an extreme example, let's say two evil hedonists who hate God, write up a "marriage" contract where they pledge for life to have lots of drugs, alcohol, and debauchery for life, you're saying that God will treat them as married and allow them to have children without sinning? My point is that civil marriages are a legal construct and they need not be tied to some covenant between man and woman that God would approve of. Case in point: green card marriages. Two people get married so that one of them can stay in the country. After they get their green card, they divorce and go separate ways. How is that holy?
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Originally Posted by lovesMountains
All other marriages would be considered "civil marriages" which are of course "valid" because a couple is legally married, just not in a covenant with God.
My question is whether civil marriages are "valid" for God. If people outside of your faith community get married without believing or doing the rituals mandated by the Church, does God approve of them doing married-couple activities?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I can see a clergyman saying that god recognizes or "honors" the commitment of people who are married in civil ceremonies
Even if the people do not believe in God? And what civil ceremonies "count"? Not every country has a stable legal system that can register and enforce marriage terms, which themselves vary immensely across the globe. If I verbally declare to my girlfriend: "I love you forever and want to live with you and have your babies" and she says the same thing, does that make us married in some metaphysical sense?
My point is that civil marriages are a legal construct and they need not be tied to some covenant between man and woman that God would approve of. Case in point: green card marriages. Two people get married so that one of them can stay in the country. After they get their green card, they divorce and go separate ways. How is that holy?
My question is whether civil marriages are "valid" for God. If people outside of your faith community get married without believing or doing the rituals mandated by the Church, does God approve of them doing married-couple activities?
First of all, "green card marriages" are illegal and therefore I doubt God finds them "valid" or "holy".
Second of all, as long as a marriage meets God's definition of marriage - which is basically what I wrote above
marriage is a faithful, exclusive, lifelong union of a man and a woman joined in an intimate community of life and love. They commit themselves completely to each other, and to the wondrous responsibility of bringing children into the world when possible and caring for all their needs - spiritual, physical and emotional.
If the institution of marriage was ordained by God, then what constitutes a marriage?
One man, one woman.
Quote:
Different cultures, religions, and legal systems have different definitions and ideas for what a marriage is. I would think that if you are religious, then you would view civil marriage and marriages conducted by people outside of your faith as purely human-made constructions. How, then, are these marriages any more valid to God's eyes than if two random people at a frat party were to declare "We pronounce each other husband and wife"?
Marriage has an order. Regardless of the difference in culture or religion, to be officially "married" (in almost every country of the world) it must be recognized by society, their official governments, and their nations. That is the exact same way it is recognized by God.
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If your God believes that having sex or children before outside of marriage is a sin or transgression, then what must two people do before they can have children without sinning / transgressing?
They can do whatever they want. God doesn't force anyone to follow the 10 commandments. You make the choice. All the children that are in the world right now are not mistakes. They were meant to be born whether their parents conceived them in sin or not. The important thing God sees is that they were born. He knows we are flawed as human beings and give in to lust and temptation. What he cares about is us coming to him and recognizing what his son did on the cross for us to be saved.
Even if the people do not believe in God? And what civil ceremonies "count"? Not every country has a stable legal system that can register and enforce marriage terms, which themselves vary immensely across the globe. If I verbally declare to my girlfriend: "I love you forever and want to live with you and have your babies" and she says the same thing, does that make us married in some metaphysical sense?
I believe that the only thing that really counts, relationally speaking, is the actual commitment, loyalty and devotion two people actually show each other. Beyond that societies have mechanisms for officially recognizing such commitments for the purpose of conferring certain rights and responsibilities on the parties. There is nothing magical about a signed legal document saying that the state recognizes that you're married, it's just a practical necessity so you get the proper tax deductions, the right to have your spouse's back medically, and so forth. There's nothing magical about a member of the clergy actually doing the marriage ceremony. If you're an abusive, sadistic twit you will be just as abusive and sadistic after being married by clergy, a justice of the peace, taking informal vows or just shacking up.
That said, what goes on between people's ears doesn't necessarily represent objective reality. The woman whom I generally for clarity's sake refer to in this space as my wife is actually not legally married to me, the main reason being that we are both widowed and in about 4 or 5 years we will become eligible for survivor's benefits if we're still single. This amounts to upwards of $150K in benefits between us over several years. Yet we go back and forth about getting married anyway because we're old-fashioned and it feels good and comforting somehow. If we do this nothing will change except the state will have gotten its $35 fee and a similar amount will go to some civil officiant and we'll have a piece of paper. We already own a house together, live exactly as man and wife, even wear rings. Yet we really want to be married. It's the power of an idea. One thing I keep reminding my "wife" is that I am just as committed to her now as I would be then and if we ever broke up it would cost me just as much emotionally, mentally, and financially either way. In some paradoxical way it might actually cost me a bit less if we were married because there is an established and clear protocol for handling breakup disputes that doesn't exist for the unmarried -- even those in common law marriage.
Marriage is one of those crazy things ... even objectivists like us are swayed by it. So it goes.
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