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There is an advantage to 'believing' for certain types of people.
It absolves one of the need or the responsibility to think or to figure out right and wrong.
It's done for you.
That makes life simpler for a lot of people.
On the Christianity forum, I joined in on a question somebody else asked.
There were no answers given....lots of digression, but no answer to the op.
Must be that when it's an tough one and there is no satisfactory answer, the choice is simply to ignore it and put it out of mind.
Only out would be "God works in mysterious ways"
See how much simpler that is ?
Exactly. Hard to find evidence for something that does not exist isn't it?
It would be hard to find if it were something I were looking for. Do you believe all Christians are looking for objective evidence of God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
If there is nothing, no reason at all, to believe X I am not sure why people go around believing X. It is a constant mystery to me.
I'm sure it makes Christians look very foolish in the eyes of many people.
(I hate to nit-pick, but I would like to put forth the idea that though God had not been proven, neither has He been disproven. For all practical purposes, I would agree that it is quite reasonable to come to the conclusion utilizing logic within the physical properties of the world that any sort of god does not exist. However. Someone on here brought up the similarity of God to flying pink unicorns. Well--how do you know I do not have a flying pink unicorn in my house? Have you disproven it? It might be a fairly easy thing to do if you knew where I lived and all. Nevertheless, you do not know beyond all doubt that I do not. Now this is very trivial, and I do not intend for anyone to take it seriously in the slightest; nevertheless, it just seems wrong to me for people to state conclusive facts when they do not have the evidence to back it up. And I will be the foremost one to admit that faith and God may all very well be a delusion, yet as the person I love more than anything else in this world said, "if it be a delusion, then it is a blessed delusion").
just know that if you have no faith, it is not your fault. faith is a gift of God. you cannot look toward the sky and see the planets and suddenly say " there is a God". God gives each a measure of faith. You might have to see Jesus in order to believe.
And I will be the foremost one to admit that faith and God may all very well be a delusion, yet as the person I love more than anything else in this world said, "if it be a delusion, then it is a blessed delusion").
It is blessed while it holds up in the Real World (tm). All you need is an average amount of luck and a decent ability to rationalize inconsistencies. I do not begrudge people their faith. It's a strategy -- one that worked for me adequately for many years.
Most atheists are agnostic atheists and don't have a problem allowing for the possibility of the existence of god(s) generally or even the existence of your god particularly. It is really a question of odds though. You do not order your life as if pink unicorns existed -- or orbiting teacups or any of the other far fetched examples that have been given over the years. This is not because of an arrogant position on your part that the possibilities of such things are literally zero, but simply a rational position based on the odds. Perhaps a more realistic example is that you don't discount the small possibility that you are an as yet undiscovered heir to a great fortune or perhaps the last representative of a lost branch of some royal family just waiting to be welcomed back into the fold. Yet, you aren't quitting your job or spending all your savings -- nor should you be.
The proposition of religion from my perspective is that you should actually follow the precepts of a belief-system as if its god not just might exist, or is likely to exist, but actually does exist. To me that is a lot of ritual, tradition, pomp, ceremony, men in funny hats and questionable teachings for something that has a vanishingly small probability for that particular belief-system and that particular god.
The value-proposition of more liberal religions traditions make a bit more sense to me. Here you have people who view religion not as a path to absolutely certain and solid knowledge about god but more as the codification of human wisdom and practice for living effectively and striving for transcendence. Liberal Christianity for example views the Bible not as a rule book or a literally true narrative of an actual god's dealings with mankind, but rather, as the collected and codified story of the human family and its search for the Divine. The problem they have is that they become so similar to philosophy, new age, self help and the like, that it's hard again in my mind to justify that they need a separate identify and tradition apart from those things. It strikes me as philosophy for people who want to play church out of habit.
I do not judge believers, liberal or otherwise, but I'm just saying this is how I see it and why it doesn't appeal to me anymore. I was a conservative Christian until the leaky abstractions failed me and I never saw the point in liberal Christianity versus other paths to human knowledge and wisdom. And I have yet to have a Christian of any stripe make a compelling case for some aspect of this whole question that I must have missed.
It would be hard to find if it were something I were looking for. Do you believe all Christians are looking for objective evidence of God?
I do not believe "all" Christians do anything at all. There is over 33,000 brands of Christianity with differing, often irreconcilable, views on the world. SOME however do try to tell us there is arguments, evidence, data or reasoning that lends credence or substantiation to the claim there is a god. Alas while telling us over and over this... they invariably and consistently fail to tell us what any of it actually is. Go figure, huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab
I'm sure it makes Christians look very foolish in the eyes of many people.
If you say so. Perhaps you should ask those "many people" though. It has nothing to do with the post you are actually replying to however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab
I would like to put forth the idea that though God had not been proven, neither has He been disproven.
Nor is there any reason it should be. It is an unfalsifiable negative and as such only the people suggesting there is a god have to substantiate that claim. There is no argument, evidence, data or reasoning that lends even a modicum of credence to the claim there is a god. There is no onus on me to prove an unfalsifiable negative.
Raising the point does nothing more than highlight once again how ridiculous a point it is. It is an attempt, usually made by theists, to build a false equivalence between the position of belief and non-beleif in order to build credibility into an otherwise nonsense world view. The fact there is no evidence either way does not make it some kind of 50:50 claim as they want to make people see it.
Misunderstand the philosophy 101 concept of "Burden of proof" if you will, but it will likely achieve nothing but erode your own credibility in the eyes of others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab
it just seems wrong to me for people to state conclusive facts when they do not have the evidence to back it up.
Then isn't it lucky that I did no such thing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab
"if it be a delusion, then it is a blessed delusion").
Which brings us full circle back to the actual topic of the thread. I do not think it a blessed delusion. At all. In fact in many cases it is outright harmful and dangerous and sometimes egregiously and hideously so. The more divorced from reality a world view is the more potential for harm and horror it contains.
I neither think there is a god NOR wish I did. I find the idea there is a god and/or an after life to be horrific. At best.
Which brings us full circle back to the actual topic of the thread. I do not think it a blessed delusion. At all. In fact in many cases it is outright harmful and dangerous and sometimes egregiously and hideously so. The more divorced from reality a world view is the more potential for harm and horror it contains.
I neither think there is a god NOR wish I did. I find the idea there is a god and/or an after life to be horrific. At best.
I was watching news coverage yesterday and TV reporters were interviewing family members of the 19 firefighters that died in Arizona. (As an aside, this is an aspect of reporting that has always irked me, bothering obviously shell-shocked grievers and asking them how they feel. But I digress). More than one of them fantasized about things like the deceased being greeted at the pearly gates by previously deceased loved ones and told "well done".
I am sure these people would tell you that the idea of an afterlife is the opposite of horrific, that it is the thin thread of hope they are clinging to in their grieving. If the illusion holds throughout their life, it may well provide comfort. This kind of thing has always held me back from wanting to actively argue that people who are not already uncomfortable in their faith should leave it. I am always up for helping someone who has already started that process because they can no longer sustain belief, but is it morally right for me to poison the well for someone for whom belief is working?
I'd feel different if I were convinced there was an afterlife of some kind in which these people would wake up in and realize they weren't going to see their loved ones. But they are most likely headed for oblivion, where they will be beyond the reach of both bereavement and disappointment.
Yes, I know that at some level many people doubt the afterlife so it's not always nearly as comforting as it might appear. Yes, I have the personal experience that one can live just as well without those assumptions once you untangle the web of interrelated lies that sustain it. But deconversion involves so many things besides the loss of superficially comforting lies. It can involve huge interpersonal and social disruption and losses too. As harmful as I agree religion is to mankind overall, I just can't feel I'm being respectful of others if I urinate all over their illusions when those illusions are, from their perspective, working for them.
The exceptions as I said are people already suffering with doubts and already leaning away from faith; plus, people who are engaging us with pro-faith arguments, specious or otherwise. In other words, I tend to leave alone the people who are not thinking it through at all, but just going with it. They are in a perceptual bubble that I probably couldn't extricate them from even if I felt it was righteous for me to do so.
I am sure these people would tell you that the idea of an afterlife is the opposite of horrific, that it is the thin thread of hope they are clinging to in their grieving.
Which I do not think is a good thing. I think grief is a wound that needs to be dressed and treated. Not brushed under the carpet and left to fester.
While lying to oneself brings temporary reprieve, when one is treating a bad wound one has to do more than simply treat the pain and ignore the injury.
There is literature on grief and often they espouse the importance of dealing with it _as soon as possible_. Take the recent disasters in the US from tornadoes. They air lifted child counselors in to meet with children who lost a parent on day 1. The counselors themselves on the news were talking about how important it is to get in there from the outset and deal with the grief and issues straight away.
One of the things recognized as being helpful in the graving process is memories of the lost loved ones. Memories fade over time. As such the very tools that we need to cope... are the tools that brushing our pain under the carpet will lead to eroding.
I do not doubt the power of lying in order to patch over a pain. Nor am I immune to the temptation when confronted with someone in great emotional pain to say anything, anything at all, that will alleviate their suffering in that moment.
I just do not think it is the correct thing to do. At all. Whos pain am I _really_ trying to mediate by lying? Theirs? Or selfishly my own?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
If the illusion holds throughout their life, it may well provide comfort.
And if the morphine injected holds long enough it _might_ wear off after the pain goes. But for a wound of any great size if you treat it with nothing but instant pain relief... then the pain when it wears off will be greater not less.
I myself have witnessed the effect on those where the illusion did NOT hold. Not only did they go through the grieving process all over again but they A) went through the parts they did not the first time around and B) suffered more from the parts they did worse than the first time.
I have before my own eyes seen the broken hulk of a person lamenting on their second round of grief... because the illusion did not hold.... crying out things like "I can not even see their face in my mind any more!!!!!". Something that they would have had in their arsenal of coping had they dealt with grief in the proper time and place.
As I said I understand the emotional pulls to let people live a lie in order to mediate their moment to moment pain. But I question the moral correctness of making that choice, the harms that choice can cause, the things it leaves people living a lie open to, and whether one is really doing it for their benefit or ones own.
Which brings us full circle back to the actual topic of the thread. I do not think it a blessed delusion. At all. In fact in many cases it is outright harmful and dangerous and sometimes egregiously and hideously so. The more divorced from reality a world view is the more potential for harm and horror it contains.
I feel that it is a good thing (for me) and you don't. We just have different mindsets, and it will be the way it is. It's why I enjoy coming on these threads and engaging in such discussions, to share differing points of view. I completely understand your view point because it was once the one I had. It's nice to be able to share differing points of view with someone without getting into vicious attacks and whatnot; I appreciate that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
It is blessed while it holds up in the Real World (tm). All you need is an average amount of luck and a decent ability to rationalize inconsistencies. I do not begrudge people their faith. It's a strategy -- one that worked for me adequately for many years.
Most atheists are agnostic atheists and don't have a problem allowing for the possibility of the existence of god(s) generally or even the existence of your god particularly. It is really a question of odds though. You do not order your life as if pink unicorns existed -- or orbiting teacups or any of the other far fetched examples that have been given over the years. This is not because of an arrogant position on your part that the possibilities of such things are literally zero, but simply a rational position based on the odds. Perhaps a more realistic example is that you don't discount the small possibility that you are an as yet undiscovered heir to a great fortune or perhaps the last representative of a lost branch of some royal family just waiting to be welcomed back into the fold. Yet, you aren't quitting your job or spending all your savings -- nor should you be.
It's nice to see someone so understanding of this. If faith doesn't have any value for someone and they're just doing it out of some sense of requirement or something, then I would think for sure it would be best for them to abandon it. Something that has practically no chance of existing in this world should not be something someone bases their life around unless it provides for them some sort of meaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I am sure these people would tell you that the idea of an afterlife is the opposite of horrific, that it is the thin thread of hope they are clinging to in their grieving. If the illusion holds throughout their life, it may well provide comfort. This kind of thing has always held me back from wanting to actively argue that people who are not already uncomfortable in their faith should leave it. I am always up for helping someone who has already started that process because they can no longer sustain belief, but is it morally right for me to poison the well for someone for whom belief is working?
I'd feel different if I were convinced there was an afterlife of some kind in which these people would wake up in and realize they weren't going to see their loved ones. But they are most likely headed for oblivion, where they will be beyond the reach of both bereavement and disappointment.
That was the reason for why I repeated the quote of how it is blessed, for dealing with grief among other things of the world. I understand that there are other, and perhaps more healthy, ways for dealing with grief and perhaps these ways might be better for some people in my opinion. Yet the world is such a difficult place and we should (for the interests of those around us if not for our own) all try to find some way to get through it. If someone is able to wake up every day and not want to kill themselves and act more less kindly toward others (though doubtless failing in that every now and then, or more often than that), I just feel that if it works for them then let them think whatever they want. I realize not everyone agrees with me on that.
Would having some kind of faith give me some comfort and peace?
Yeah, I bet it would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgordeeva
There has to be something after death, right?
Nope. The atoms in your body are used somewhere else. That's it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgordeeva
Any advice?
Be a good person and treat others with respect. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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