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The trouble with faith is it is as difficult to prove as a negative and this is why believers don't pay heed to non believers, for they are sure no one can disprove their belief.
Sorry Deb, but you don't "know". You 'believe' and unfortunately for those who believe....their beliefs don't equal truth.
When Hale-Bopp appeared in '97, an amateur astronomer reported an unidentified object "following" the comet in its tail. It turned out to be a star that was nowhere near the comet.
Thirty-nine members of Heaven's Gate knew that Jesus was waiting for them on the spaceship in Hale-Bopp's tail. They knew he had come to take them away to a distant planet. They knew if they took phenobarbital with a vodka chaser and tied a plastic bag over their heads, they could join Jesus on his secret spaceship disguised as a star, where each of them could use the five dollars in quarters they had in their earthly pockets for video games and sodas. They didn't believe any of this: they knew it with such certainty that they loaded their pockets with quarters and took Phenobarbital with a vodka chaser and tied plastic bags over their heads.
And I can say the same back to you...you cannot "know" for certain that there isn't a God. And I think that your beliefs do not equal truth. As I said, you, as an unbeliever, will never be able to understand how I, as a believer, can say that I know for certain there is a God....period. I'm sure you've heard the Bible verse about every knee bowing before Him and every tongue confessing the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord. I pray that the truth will be revealed to you before that day comes...if not, I will see you there on your knees just as I will be!
And I can say the same back to you...you cannot "know" for certain that there isn't a God.
Well Deb, what I can "know for certain" is that there is no empirical, verifiable evidence in existence to show that he does, so why would I believe? If I told you that Santa exists would you take that on faith or would you ask for evidence that my claim is valid?
Hi GCSTroop, I agree with some of what you're saying here. No matter what we believe, we should be able to show respect for others.
On the other hands, I think you're too strong to say that this sort of certainty in religious doctrine leads people to fly planes into the Twin Towers. Sure, religious terrorists are certain, but so are the religious people who leave everything behind to feed the poor and help the sick. Certainty is not the problem, it's seeing other people as a position to overcome, rather than as people worthy of respect in their own right.
Many people are certain of their beliefs about religion--atheist and theists alike. Are "certainty" and "faith" the same thing sometimes?
I'm not talking about the certainty in religious doctrine that leads people to commit heinous acts. Yes, most of these people are certain their beliefs are concrete and so I suppose that is an element of radicalism. But, as I said, it is the "I'm right, you're wrong, and there's no discussion because my God is better than yours" that I fear. In that sort of attitude, yes there is certainty, but I also detect an inkling of smug superiority that scares me.
Have you ever seen or debated a radical Islamist? If not, and I'm not plugging the program although I think it should be watched, in "Religion: The Root of All Evil" a BBC special that Richard Dawkins did, has an interview with an American Muslim living in Palestine (I believe he is in Palestine, at least). You should watch it, I detect the same sort of tone. That's what scares me. It's not the confidence in the imaginary man that scares me. It's the confidence that your imaginary man is not only right, but he is much better than all other imaginary men, and that he will advocate your aggressiveness to prove your point that scares me.
Well Deb, what I can "know for certain" is that there is no empirical, verifiable evidence in existence to show that he does, so why would I believe? If I told you that Santa exists would you take that on faith or would you ask for evidence that my claim is valid?
Well as a believer I put my trust in the Bible verse that says the "heavens declare His glory". I see God in all of creation. Everything that we see in "nature" points to God. I also have seen Him work in my life as well as the lives of many of my friends and family members. Those are just a couple of the reasons that I believe in God. Going back to my original post to you, until you experience it for yourself, you cannot know what I am talking about.
I finally made it up to NYC this past weekend. My wife and I went to the World Trade Centers. My first thought upon seeing Ground Zero was subtle amazement.
My first thought walking into the memorial building brought it into perspective for me. On one wall are photocopies of the actual missing posters of many of the people.
On another wall, behind a glass case, are pictures of the people that died. Well, about half of them. It was then that I realized, looking into all those bright shining faces who had so much taken away from them that God must certainly not exist.
I can understand perhaps the difference in good and evil in a childish concept of mischief vs. good. But, is it so necessary to take away almost 3000 people in one fell swoop? Is it entirely necessary to allow things like that to occur? Was it necessary for each one of those families to experience the tragedies that they did? All for what? What was God's purpose for that?
Was it to get people closer to him? Was it to allow people to see him better? To ask him questions? To allow people to commit atrocities like that in HIS name? No, I say. No!
There is no such thing as God. Something like that was not necessary. Sometimes you don't realize the true tragedy until you can experience it in some small way. If there is a God, than I want no part of him for he is as wicked as the men who flew those airplanes into the building for allowing it to happen.
I live in Europe and I have never been to Ground Zero but as most of the world I followed with horror those moments when the planes hit the towers and all that came after that. It is very diificult and I am not trying to comment on the feeling of the people directly or indirectly involved in the massacre but I find it a bit semplistic to blame God for what happened. God created us and gave us the freedom of choice for our actions. This means that often the choices we make go against love, God and humanity and this is the tension we have to live with. In a funny sort of way by giving us this freedom God has limited himself and sometimes we do horrible things to each other and He can't intervene. My experience of living through terrible moments is that God is there, going through the suffering with us and trying to redeem somehow that horror in unexpected ways.
It is a bit like us and our children. There will be a moment when we will not be able to control our children completely. They will grow up and begin to make choices for themselves. We can hope that they make the right choices but perhaps sometimes they make a mess of things and all we can do is to be with them,cry with them, accompany them and help them through the difficult times and make things right again.
Let's stop blaming God for everything and recognise that we, as human beings make choices and let's begin to ask ourselves how can we make this world a better place for all the people
Last edited by hutch5; 11-13-2007 at 07:16 AM..
Reason: Claruty of espression
I live in Europe and I have never been to Ground Zero but as most of the world I followed with horror those moments when the planes hit the towers and all that came after that. It is very diificult and I am not trying to comment on the feeling of the people directly or indirectly involved in the massacre but I find it a bit semplistic to blame God for what happened. God created us and gave us the freedom of choice for our actions. This means that often the choices we make go against love, God and humanity and this is the tension we have to live with. In a funny sort of way by giving us this freedom God has limited himself and sometimes we do horrible things to each other and He can't intervene. My experience of living through terrible moments is that God is there, going through the suffering with us and trying to redeem somehow that horror in unexpected ways.
It is a bit like us and our children. There will be a moment when we will not be able to control our children completely. They will grow up and begin to make choices for themselves. We can hope that they make the right choices but perhaps sometimes they make a mess of things and all we can do is to be with them,cry with them, accompany them and help them through the difficult times and make things right again.
Let's stop blaming God for everything and recognise that we, as human beings make choices and let's begin to ask ourselves how can we make this world a better place for all the people
As I already mentioned in this post. I am not blaming God for what happened, it seems people are taking my original post out of context and suiting it to what they think I am implying. For me to blame God would be as absurd as you blaming Zeus for the Sirens in the Iliad (or was it the Odyssey?) for purposely crashing ships and drowning sailors. What I intended the OP to mean is that I do not believe in God, and yet, actions like this further affirm to me that a "loving" God does not exist. Making excuses or trying to rationalize something of non-existence is kind of pointless don't you think?
yes, you are right, you did not blame God for what happened and I am sorry if I quoted you incorrectly. Nevertheless I still find that using 9/11 to prove the non existence of God is a bit semplistic.
Last edited by hutch5; 11-13-2007 at 08:29 AM..
Reason: need for clarity
In a funny sort of way by giving us this freedom God has limited himself and sometimes we do horrible things to each other and He can't intervene.
(emphasis added) Hutch, You give the impression that you think the Christian god is not Omnimax!
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It is a bit like us and our children.
It's nothing like us and our children! I really don't understand why theists keep making this analogy. Parents are not Omnimax. Read the word again team....OMNIMAX!
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There will be a moment when we will not be able to control our children completely.
This is not the case with the Christian god as his power is unlimited (allegedly).
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They will grow up and begin to make choices for themselves. We can hope that they make the right choices but perhaps sometimes they make a mess of things and all we can do is to be with them,cry with them, accompany them and help them through the difficult times and make things right again.
....but if you were in a position to prevent their hardship, why would you not do so?
Forgive me if I am wrong but what I feel you are alluding to here is that your god won't interfere with our free will. So, let me ask you this....what if one of us used this free will defence to justify his failure to intervene to prevent a crime from being committed? Here's the scenario:
I am walking down the street and I witness a young child about to be brutally sexually assaulted. I am in a position to prevent this crime from happening but instead of doing so I think it best that I protect the free-will of the attacker by allowing him to carry out his plan.
In the above scenario, would I be judged to have made a moral error?
Why, if this argument would be unacceptable coming from a human being, should we think it any more acceptable coming from an omni-benevolent god?
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Let's stop blaming God for everything
.....but Hutch!.....who else should we blame? Theists claim that their god is in control of everything. Well, the problem with being in control of EVERYTHING is that it tends to make you responsible for EVERYTHING.
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.......lets begin to ask ourselves how can we make this world a better place for all the people
The total abolition of organised religion might be a good start!
Actually, you might be right!! There are a lot of religious organizations that do nothing good to help improve the opinion atheist have of Christians (and I would imagine other religions too?).
The problems to me seems that you are stereotyping Christians, jumbling them all together. I know that in the States there is a great percentage of very fundamentalist Christians. Here in Europe things are different and it looks as if people are not so black or white. For example not all christians think that God is in control of everything.
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