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Dogma will tell you hell is eternal. However, I want to hear how you deal with this idea.
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Mysteriously, Hell is the final choice of some who finally reject God and the values of his Kingdom, such as mercy, love of the poor, chastity, worship and so forth. It is we who do this, not God who wants no one to perish but all to come to repentance
But all of that is secondary, and may well flow from the primary suffering, which is the self-imposed and adamant desire of the soul to permanently live apart from God.
Hold up here. God wants us to come to repentance. Correct? Supposing we choose Hell over God. Can we repent of Hell? Can we indeed say, "I don't want this anymore"? Given that Hell is self-imposed separation, I find the belief set that it is somehow "final" absurd. Thoughts?
Here are my thoughts, from living in the mortal world:
A God who allows free will, would not assign souls to a fate they cannot escape.
This includes Heaven as well, since some people may find Heaven boring.
We appear to be put on this Earth, not as a test to see whether we qualify for Heaven or not, but rather as a learning experience (since Heaven appears to have no hardship)
I have experienced things in this life that were comparable to Hell. Generally, these things were finite, and reversible in every instance.
If God is a God of love, then both killing us and torturing us for all eternity, are both unloving ruling out both Hell and annihilationism.
Logically, a God of love, if he had to punish us, would offer a way for us to be rescued (similar to the Buddha offering a spider thread for the thief to escape torment, which he ruined by selfishness).
Also logically, if Hell is self-imposed, this means that it only lasts as long as it needs before we stop separating ourselves or punishing ourselves.
From a cross-religious perspective, this is not consistent with other religions. Either fundamentalist priests are somehow more wise than Hindu and Buddhist mystics, who over thousands of years, have made their observations of live, death, and existence (I highly doubt it), or this is either a massive misunderstanding or outright bullcrap.
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 07-18-2015 at 07:09 PM..
Dogma will tell you hell is eternal. However, I want to hear how you deal with this idea.
Hold up here. God wants us to come to repentance. Correct? Supposing we choose Hell over God. Can we repent of Hell? Can we indeed say, "I don't want this anymore"? Given that Hell is self-imposed separation, I find the belief set that it is somehow "final" absurd. Thoughts?
"The self-imposed and adamant desire of the soul to permanently live apart from God"?? Simply a clumsy attempt to justify a morally indefensible claim ... that a benevolent god is somehow compatible with infinite punishment for finite offenses which themselves are entirely arbitrarily defined. Combined with the hubris of thinking you know what everyone who doesn't agree with you thinks.
If god is not willing that any should perish then he has a number of incredibly straightforward options at his disposal. Simply forgive them. Or reassess his arbitrary criteria for "sin". Or quit saying things like "come now let us reason together" and then condemning them for using reason. Or make the punishment fit the crime. Or construct a penal system that, if god doesn't have any better ideas, has at least a human statement of purpose, such as rehabilitation and restoration of the miscreant to (heavenly) society.
I can't be certain this wasn't among the many sections of the Bible edited by revision.
Also, we get a very telling section in the story of Lazarus.
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19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Hold up there, though.
Rich dude is part of the same dimension as Abraham, Lazarus, and so on.
Okay, so there is a chasm that nobody can cross. However, Jesus himself is the exception to this rule.
You see, we have the Apostle's Creed.
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,born of the Virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried;he descended into hell. On the third day he rose again;he ascended into heaven,he is seated at the right hand of the Father,and he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church,the communion of saints,the forgiveness of sins,the resurrection of the body,and the life everlasting. Amen.
What can we learn from this? Well, possibly, that Jesus is precisely the solution to this very problem. That this advocate provides a way for us to be possibly saved even from Hell.
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If god is not willing that any should perish then he has a number of incredibly straightforward options at his disposal. Simply forgive them. Or reassess his arbitrary criteria for "sin". Or quit saying things like "come now let us reason together" and then condemning them for using reason. Or make the punishment fit the crime. Or construct a penal system that, if god doesn't have any better ideas, has at least a human statement of purpose, such as rehabilitation and restoration of the miscreant to (heavenly) society.
I saw an interesting idea from a movie called Astral City. Those in Hell were viewed as wretches rather than sinners, and Hell was more a shadowy place with tortured souls (and decaying veggies). The protagonist saw people crying out for help (and later did so himself), and were carried away by "doctors" on stretchers to be nursed back to health.
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 07-18-2015 at 07:31 PM..
I can't be certain this wasn't among the many sections of the Bible edited by revision.
Also, we get a very telling section in the story of Lazarus.
Hold up there, though.
Rich dude is part of the same dimension as Abraham, Lazarus, and so on.
Okay, so there is a chasm that nobody can cross. However, Jesus himself is the exception to this rule.
You see, we have the Apostle's Creed.
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,born of the Virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried;he descended into hell. On the third day he rose again;he ascended into heaven,he is seated at the right hand of the Father,and he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church,the communion of saints,the forgiveness of sins,the resurrection of the body,and the life everlasting. Amen.
What can we learn from this? Well, possibly, that Jesus is precisely the solution to this very problem. That this advocate provides a way for us to be possibly saved even from Hell.
[*]If God is a God of love, then both killing us and torturing us for all eternity, are both unloving ruling out both Hell and annihilationism.[*]Logically, a God of love, if he had to punish us, would offer a way for us to be rescued....[*]Also logically, if Hell is self-imposed, this means that it only lasts as long as it needs before we stop separating ourselves or punishing ourselves.
I'm only going to comment on these two points, since I essentially agree with you on them. You don't want dogma, so I guess you've got all I have to give. If you change your mind and want to know why I believe as I do, just say so.
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